Alastair Campbell

Um, and that means that he can't, I mean, for example, if he was suddenly to make a big speech about the future of defense spending or, you know, our policy on Iran, people would start thinking, hold on a minute, you're not the prime minister, what's going on?

But actually the thing that the labor party and the public need to know before there is any change is what he does believe and what he does stand for in terms of foreign policy, Europe,

Middle East, all this big stuff that would be on his plate straight away if he became prime minister.

So I think, whether toxic is the right word, I think it is certainly going to be a period of really quite odd turmoil for the Labour Party, which just underlines to me how sad it is to go from in less than two years from a landslide win to this.

It's just, it's not great.

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Welcome to The Rest is Policy Leading with me, Alistair Campbell.

And with me, Rory Stewart.

And today we have with us Odd Arne Vestad, who is a professor at Yale University, but has been a very distinguished professor at many other universities around the world.

We're going to be focusing on...

on his new book, which looks at some very, very powerful questions around whether we might be on the verge of another war, and what lessons we might be able to learn from the lead up not to the Second World War, so much as the First World War, which he's got into a lot.

But he's also a very remarkable person.