Alastair Campbell

But I know that to get where he is, he has had to devote his whole life to theology and to impressing a lot of people in the Catholic Church that he knows his stuff.

J.D.

Vance got to where he is.

Because Donald Trump put him there.

And as you say, he's become a Catholic.

He's frankly writing a book about this wonderful conversion.

And he genuinely thinks he can argue with the Pope on theology.

So does Mike Johnson, the speaker.

So does Pete Hexeth.

And this is what happens, I think, with cults.

You know how Sean Hannity, the kind of well-known MAGA broadcaster, say, I no longer consider myself a Catholic because of this row going on between Trump and the Pope.

In other words, if I have to choose the Pope or Trump, I'm going to go with Trump.

And what's incredible about all of these people is that they seem to have real trouble with the Pope himself.

being an expert on scripture, but no trouble with Trump posting pictures of himself as Jesus, or frankly, being a deeply unchristian human being.

And the other thing, don't forget, Roy, this all started, this particular...

chapter in this row started when Hexer's deputy in the Pentagon, Elbridge Colby, met the Vatican's US envoy, a guy called Cardinal Christophe Pierre, and warned that the US military had the power to do whatever it wants in the world and the Catholic Church better decide what side it's on.

So it's just a form of the MAGA madness that we've seen.

But there is a method to the madness.

Now, you know, I've been, I think twice now, I did it again with Dominic Sambrook when he stood in for you when you were away in the Galapagos.

And these 14 tenets, if you like, of fascism that are posted up in the Holocaust Museum in Washington.