Alastair Campbell

So we had the strategic defence review where George Robertson, Fiona Hill, Richard Bacon came together and wrote a pretty comprehensive defence review.

It was always projected that that would be part of a two-stage process.

Then would come the defence investment plan about how we get to these longer-term goals.

And it has been sort of just, you know, knocked about and knocked about.

I couldn't help thinking when I was reading John Healy's resignation letter, Ben Wallace, another former defence secretary that we spoke to on leading, if you remember in his interview,

How many times did he attack the Treasury?

I mean, it was relentless.

And I wonder if John Healy's just got to that point of saying, you can't reason with these people.

You've got to do it.

And just to underline that, the one part, I mean, people are going to have all their criticism of Keir Starmer and, you know, he's faced plenty.

But he has managed to develop this reputation as being pretty sound on foreign affairs and defence.

So the one kind of really strong point that he has in his favour, John Healey today, is considerably undercut.

And I mean, I was speaking to a couple of ministers in the immediate wake of this, both of whom said,

said they did not see this coming at all.

They'd heard there were kind of murmurs and there were troubles.

And one said, actually, they thought that John had maybe underplayed his hand in the first part of the negotiations.

So the Treasury didn't really fully understand how kind of on the rampage he might end up being.

I don't know.

But neither of them saw this coming.

But both did say that it's kind of of a piece of...