Alastair Campbell

within the party.

And this thing literally came out of the blue.

I was at a charity dinner, Margaret McDonagh, the former general secretary of the Labour Party, who died of a brain tumor, and there's this charity that's been set up in her name.

And I was at it the other night with Fiona, and John Healy was there with his wife, Jackie.

I spoke to him briefly, and it now turns out this was Monday, and this was the day that he was first presented with the Complete Defence Investment Plan,

So he was obviously sitting there, didn't let on anything, but he was obviously sitting there really considering his future.

And if you'd have said to me at the start of this parliament, here's Keir Starmer's cabinet, assuming he lasts five years, who do you think is going to stay in the same job for the five years?

I'd have put John Healy in there.

We interviewed him on Leading.

He's very, very – I got a message today from somebody fairly high up in the MOD who said, you know, ministers come and go, but we were rather hoping this one wouldn't go.

He's respected.

He's been good at his job.

The first part of his resignation letter actually is just a sort of very long list of all the things that he and Keir Starmer have done together to boost our defences.

So I think it's a very big thing.

Can I just come in on that?

They would probably argue that they did, not least, we talked several times on the podcast about the fact that they have shredded overseas aid and development money to put it into defence.

We've also talked about whether the easier thing might have been earlier in the parliament to say, we're facing a new defence threat, we're going to put up tax.

They didn't do that.

So these are choices that you make.

I think what ministers have found more frustrating is the time that this has taken.