Alistair Campbell

It was brutal, hard politics.

And I think the reason why Mark Carney's speech was so significant –

And of course, whether it genuinely goes down in history, which it might, depends on how long he survives and it depends on what this new world order becomes.

But I think that's what was really interesting about the whole thing is people were – that phrase that he used, this is a rupture, not a transition.

And also, I don't know if you remember this, when we interviewed him for the first time, I think –

It might have been the second time.

He's one of the few people we've interviewed twice.

But that phrase that went down as a big part of the speech, if you're not at the table, you're on the menu.

He said that in those terms when we interviewed him.

And I think what you saw in that speech was him bringing together a thinking that he's been developing ever since he ran for office.

But I think what's fascinating is whether the middle powers, as they're called, which includes us, which includes France, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Canada, some of the Latin American countries as well, is whether they respond to that, and if so, how.

And there's a very interesting example this week, I thought.

Not necessarily as eye-catching as stuff on defense or cyber or misinformation or whatever, but this agreement that the UK has made with eight other European countries about energy.

They're all doing this giant wind farm, giant wind farms.

And of course, one of Trump's great schticks at Davos was constantly on about windmills.

Went on for about 15 minutes.

I mean, he's just in this droning on about, and this lie, one of his many lies, China manufactures them, but doesn't use them.

Yes, you said they sell them to the stupid countries, Britain, France, Germany.

So there's yet another insult.

So that was an example that Ed Billiband was in Hamburg, I think it was, and signed this deal with Germany, Holland, Netherlands, Norway, others.