Alistair Campbell

Because, as you say, you were chief secretary.

And then we lost the election to David Cameron's coalition government.

And the new chief secretary comes in and he finds your note saying there is no money left, which I at the time thought was a perfectly… Traditional bit of gallows humour.

Well, a bit of kind of banter between.

You're basically saying, welcome in and do that.

And you maybe underestimated the extent to which the Tories are utterly ruthless.

And they think, right, we've got back at it.

We're not going to go anytime soon.

That became weaponised to the extent that it almost defines you.

It follows you everywhere.

But was that a form of populist politics?

The fact that David Cameron, who...

knew that it was a joke, and it's probably the sort of joke that he would have made to somebody.

No, we don't plug the rest is history.

They do their own dirty work.

So let's just have a little look at how they turn some of this sense of loss that people have into the anger that is both fueled but is also weaponized, not least with the media landscape that you've talked about.

a local nostalgia but then isn't one of the problems that we all buy in or have been pushed to buy in to this tech revolution that means that we don't we don't equate our own conduct our own behavior our own sense of responsibility with the fact that because we all shop online because we go into amazon because we can't be bothered to go and find a shop

Is this a call to reverse the national insurance rises and more?

And you mentioned earlier this thing about nostalgia.

I guess this relates to