Andrew Marantz

And over the time that I had been covering it, it went from... the fringe discredited theory known as great replacement theory to the thing Tucker Carlson is saying every night on his show to the thing Victor Orban is saying in parliament to now the things that members of Congress are saying in the US.

And over the time that I had been covering it, it went from... the fringe discredited theory known as great replacement theory to the thing Tucker Carlson is saying every night on his show to the thing Victor Orban is saying in parliament to now the things that members of Congress are saying in the US.

I mean, so to be clear, I would agree with Zach's broad point that Trump is not doing it the Orban way and that Trump is impulsive and that the tariffs hurt him. And so I think we all broadly agree that the laws of political gravity have not been suspended.

I mean, so to be clear, I would agree with Zach's broad point that Trump is not doing it the Orban way and that Trump is impulsive and that the tariffs hurt him. And so I think we all broadly agree that the laws of political gravity have not been suspended.

I mean, one of the important points that people made to me over and over again while I was reporting this piece is even if you call it authoritarianism, and many of the people I spoke to did, many of the political scientists I spoke to, including some of the, we spoke to some of the same political scientists, they told me flat out, America is currently not a democracy. And yet in the next breath.

I mean, one of the important points that people made to me over and over again while I was reporting this piece is even if you call it authoritarianism, and many of the people I spoke to did, many of the political scientists I spoke to, including some of the, we spoke to some of the same political scientists, they told me flat out, America is currently not a democracy. And yet in the next breath.

Well, so it was interesting. So Stephen Levitsky, who was one of the co-authors of How Democracies Die, he also was a co-author of this really seminal paper where he defined, he invented the term competitive authoritarianism. I spoke to him and his co-author on that paper, Lucan Way. And when I talked to both of them, and I said, where are we on the map of history right now?

Well, so it was interesting. So Stephen Levitsky, who was one of the co-authors of How Democracies Die, he also was a co-author of this really seminal paper where he defined, he invented the term competitive authoritarianism. I spoke to him and his co-author on that paper, Lucan Way. And when I talked to both of them, and I said, where are we on the map of history right now?

They said, we have crossed the line. We are no longer a democracy. They had written this piece called The Path to American Authoritarianism, and they said, we are on that path, and we are, in fact, past the line. They didn't say we're past the point of no return, because the definition of- But what is the line? It's a little squishy what the line is.

They said, we have crossed the line. We are no longer a democracy. They had written this piece called The Path to American Authoritarianism, and they said, we are on that path, and we are, in fact, past the line. They didn't say we're past the point of no return, because the definition of- But what is the line? It's a little squishy what the line is.

To back up, one thing I said, because I was thinking about metaphors, and we were talking about, you know, where in the Schrodinger's cat of democracy are we? One thing that I think is a real flaw in the metaphor is, you know, we're writers. We think about metaphors.

To back up, one thing I said, because I was thinking about metaphors, and we were talking about, you know, where in the Schrodinger's cat of democracy are we? One thing that I think is a real flaw in the metaphor is, you know, we're writers. We think about metaphors.

democracies don't die. They can always be rebuilt.

democracies don't die. They can always be rebuilt.

When people— When you have to think twice before you speak up.

When people— When you have to think twice before you speak up.

And on that point, you know, we were talking about we're sitting here in the citadel and we're not afraid to call it out. And that's true. I will say—and again, these are very early signs because we're not far enough into the timeline to know— No, the New Yorker has not been compromised. And no, free speech is not dead. And yes, it does matter that we have a First Amendment.

And on that point, you know, we were talking about we're sitting here in the citadel and we're not afraid to call it out. And that's true. I will say—and again, these are very early signs because we're not far enough into the timeline to know— No, the New Yorker has not been compromised. And no, free speech is not dead. And yes, it does matter that we have a First Amendment.

I will say, though, when I was reporting up at Columbia, people were giving me anonymous information. And they were saying, we're actually sort of scared to give this to you because we don't know what all the harboring laws are. We could be sort of making you an accessory to someone who's on the run from ICE or something.

I will say, though, when I was reporting up at Columbia, people were giving me anonymous information. And they were saying, we're actually sort of scared to give this to you because we don't know what all the harboring laws are. We could be sort of making you an accessory to someone who's on the run from ICE or something.