Andrew Marantz

And I am very much not into the norms will save us, the courts will save us. Like I get all the critiques of that and I share many of them. But to say that Trump doesn't have the formal power to do X, Y, or Z, I think ignores the ways in which he's already done those things. So can he disappear people? Yes, he can. He already has. Can he freeze and impound funds? Yes, he has.

And I am very much not into the norms will save us, the courts will save us. Like I get all the critiques of that and I share many of them. But to say that Trump doesn't have the formal power to do X, Y, or Z, I think ignores the ways in which he's already done those things. So can he disappear people? Yes, he can. He already has. Can he freeze and impound funds? Yes, he has.

And you've written when he did those things.

And you've written when he did those things.

I get it. But what I'm saying is that whether they're entrenched, to me... is not merely a measure of whether they're written down on paper in a judicial order. Whether they're entrenched also has to do with when you do them, what happens informally to you.

I get it. But what I'm saying is that whether they're entrenched, to me... is not merely a measure of whether they're written down on paper in a judicial order. Whether they're entrenched also has to do with when you do them, what happens informally to you.

So all I'm saying is I don't think we're all going to end up in a gulag, but I don't necessarily think that that power is unentrenched because it is informal. So let me back up. There's this idea of political orders. I know you're a Gary Gerstle head, as am I. Gary Gerstle has this whole notion of what a political order is. It's this big hegemonic, right?

So all I'm saying is I don't think we're all going to end up in a gulag, but I don't necessarily think that that power is unentrenched because it is informal. So let me back up. There's this idea of political orders. I know you're a Gary Gerstle head, as am I. Gary Gerstle has this whole notion of what a political order is. It's this big hegemonic, right?

So he has this notion that there was the New Deal political order, which was succeeded by the Reagan neoliberal political order. It's not just, oh, people used to like Democrats. Now they like Republicans.

So he has this notion that there was the New Deal political order, which was succeeded by the Reagan neoliberal political order. It's not just, oh, people used to like Democrats. Now they like Republicans.

Great episode. And so what I sort of see that political order thing as doing is trying to get outside, trying to get on a much bigger timeline. And I sort of see, I don't know if Gerstle would co-sign this, I might be out on a limb here, but I sort of see it as like a structure of scientific revolutions of politics. Mm-hmm.

Great episode. And so what I sort of see that political order thing as doing is trying to get outside, trying to get on a much bigger timeline. And I sort of see, I don't know if Gerstle would co-sign this, I might be out on a limb here, but I sort of see it as like a structure of scientific revolutions of politics. Mm-hmm.

The structure of scientific revolutions where we get paradigm shift from, it's not like... Is it the book by Thomas Kuhn that coins the term paradigm shift? The philosopher of science who, when he's talking about a paradigm shift, he's not talking about... oh, we didn't have microscopes and now we do. What a paradigm shift. That's really useful.

The structure of scientific revolutions where we get paradigm shift from, it's not like... Is it the book by Thomas Kuhn that coins the term paradigm shift? The philosopher of science who, when he's talking about a paradigm shift, he's not talking about... oh, we didn't have microscopes and now we do. What a paradigm shift. That's really useful.

He's talking about ideas that are inconceivable, unthinkable, not allowed by... Like, you don't even form them in your mind because they're unthinkable. And so if you take that into the structure of political orders and how they shift... Things that were unthinkable as an Eisenhower Republican or a Nixon Republican, you know, you don't just attack and defund the welfare state.

He's talking about ideas that are inconceivable, unthinkable, not allowed by... Like, you don't even form them in your mind because they're unthinkable. And so if you take that into the structure of political orders and how they shift... Things that were unthinkable as an Eisenhower Republican or a Nixon Republican, you know, you don't just attack and defund the welfare state.

That's not how politics works. Then after the Reagan Revolution, all you do is different degrees of attack the welfare state, right? So in that sense, if we want to talk about the timeline of what it would mean for Trump to be winning and reshifting, I think you said, the constitutional order, part of what I think about is if the neoliberal order is cracked, as Gerstle says it is,

That's not how politics works. Then after the Reagan Revolution, all you do is different degrees of attack the welfare state, right? So in that sense, if we want to talk about the timeline of what it would mean for Trump to be winning and reshifting, I think you said, the constitutional order, part of what I think about is if the neoliberal order is cracked, as Gerstle says it is,

Then the question is, what will succeed it? It could just be that we just sort of muddle through with nothing to replace it, and it's just what Gramsci would call the time of monsters, like, indefinitely. Or it could be... Abundance? It could be abundance. Right. But so, you need a vision for what will replace it, as you know. The whole conclusion of the book is about political orders. Right.

Then the question is, what will succeed it? It could just be that we just sort of muddle through with nothing to replace it, and it's just what Gramsci would call the time of monsters, like, indefinitely. Or it could be... Abundance? It could be abundance. Right. But so, you need a vision for what will replace it, as you know. The whole conclusion of the book is about political orders. Right.