Andrew Marantz

Well, the New Yorker... Blink twice, Andrew. The New Yorker so far is not... Well, this is another thing, which is... where are we on the timeline? Yes, where are we on the timeline? If we're 100 days in, I mean, you totally could have gone to Orban's Hungary 100 days in and said, he hasn't taken control of the media. It took him seven or eight years to get control of the media.

So, you know, if you had the Washington Post killing editorial cartoons and changing its editorial mission ahead of a new regime coming into office, I wouldn't say the media is totally cooked, but I would say that doesn't look great.

So, you know, if you had the Washington Post killing editorial cartoons and changing its editorial mission ahead of a new regime coming into office, I wouldn't say the media is totally cooked, but I would say that doesn't look great.

Tell me about that trip. The felt sense was really, as you say, this liminal, you know, another term people use is hybrid regime. And the hybridity, the ambiguity, the plausible deniability, it's all around you. So, you know, you take the example of the universities. One thing that one reads about Hungary is Viktor Orban didn't like CEU, Central European University.

Tell me about that trip. The felt sense was really, as you say, this liminal, you know, another term people use is hybrid regime. And the hybridity, the ambiguity, the plausible deniability, it's all around you. So, you know, you take the example of the universities. One thing that one reads about Hungary is Viktor Orban didn't like CEU, Central European University.

He didn't like it because he was waging this kind of propaganda war against George Soros or the figure of George Soros who was funding that university. And so he got rid of it. He kicked it out. And then you go there and you go to a building that says CEU on the front of it. And it has a big plaque that says George Soros funded this university.

He didn't like it because he was waging this kind of propaganda war against George Soros or the figure of George Soros who was funding that university. And so he got rid of it. He kicked it out. And then you go there and you go to a building that says CEU on the front of it. And it has a big plaque that says George Soros funded this university.

And you walk in and you're in the university that you were told was kicked out of Budapest. So right there, I was like, what's going on exactly? And I was talking to dissidents in the middle of Budapest, criticizing the regime and calling it autocratic. And they weren't fearing that they were going to get stuffed into a van.

And you walk in and you're in the university that you were told was kicked out of Budapest. So right there, I was like, what's going on exactly? And I was talking to dissidents in the middle of Budapest, criticizing the regime and calling it autocratic. And they weren't fearing that they were going to get stuffed into a van.

And I found this really actually confusing, but also instructive, because I didn't then leave and say, oh, Orban has lost. He has failed to consolidate control. I just thought, oh, what that means is maybe different than the notion I had in my head. So it doesn't mean...

And I found this really actually confusing, but also instructive, because I didn't then leave and say, oh, Orban has lost. He has failed to consolidate control. I just thought, oh, what that means is maybe different than the notion I had in my head. So it doesn't mean...

that in order to get rid of CEU, you have to raid the building, put a padlock on the door, and sell it to become a barracks or something. It means CEU is no longer a degree-granting institution in Budapest. So it's this kind of, I call it a Potemkin University. It's kind of hollowed out from within. Then I come back to the U.S.,

that in order to get rid of CEU, you have to raid the building, put a padlock on the door, and sell it to become a barracks or something. It means CEU is no longer a degree-granting institution in Budapest. So it's this kind of, I call it a Potemkin University. It's kind of hollowed out from within. Then I come back to the U.S.,

Trump is inaugurated, and he starts going after Columbia University, saying there are all these foreigners here, they have these strange foreign ideas, we don't like it, it's too woke, it's too anti-Semitic. Interestingly, the way they use the trope of the international Jew is kind of different in Hungary and in the U.S., but, you know, same, same.

Trump is inaugurated, and he starts going after Columbia University, saying there are all these foreigners here, they have these strange foreign ideas, we don't like it, it's too woke, it's too anti-Semitic. Interestingly, the way they use the trope of the international Jew is kind of different in Hungary and in the U.S., but, you know, same, same.

And then he starts levying these kind of informal attacks on Columbia University, but they don't take the form of an executive order that says Columbia University no longer exists. He doesn't send in the army to raid Columbia University. He says, because you're too woke and antisemitic, we are going to freeze these funds from you.

And then he starts levying these kind of informal attacks on Columbia University, but they don't take the form of an executive order that says Columbia University no longer exists. He doesn't send in the army to raid Columbia University. He says, because you're too woke and antisemitic, we are going to freeze these funds from you.

And I think if I had seen that through a lens of, is this Iran in 1979 or is this 1930s Germany, I would have said, oh, it's not happening here. But seeing it through the lens of competitive authoritarianism, I thought, okay, he's not going to get everything he wants. He's not going to wipe Columbia University off the map if that's even something he desires. But will he weaken it?

And I think if I had seen that through a lens of, is this Iran in 1979 or is this 1930s Germany, I would have said, oh, it's not happening here. But seeing it through the lens of competitive authoritarianism, I thought, okay, he's not going to get everything he wants. He's not going to wipe Columbia University off the map if that's even something he desires. But will he weaken it?

Will he chill people's speech? I think he already has succeeded at doing that. I mean, and just to put, you know, the felt sense kind of to close that loop. What it really felt like reporting from Columbia University a few weeks ago was just this pervasive sense of fear and confusion about where the lines actually were, where formal and informal power was.