Andrew Marantz

We tell the story in retrospect as Orban, the great genius who got what he wanted. But we know that he loses fights all the time. This is what's competitive in part about competitive authoritarianism. It's still politics. It's still a fight. And so, look, I grant that every case is different. But Bukele did it a different way. Duterte did it a different way. Bolsonaro did it a different way.

We tell the story in retrospect as Orban, the great genius who got what he wanted. But we know that he loses fights all the time. This is what's competitive in part about competitive authoritarianism. It's still politics. It's still a fight. And so, look, I grant that every case is different. But Bukele did it a different way. Duterte did it a different way. Bolsonaro did it a different way.

And ultimately, when the history of this is written, it won't be, oh, he didn't do it the right way. It'll be, did it work?

And ultimately, when the history of this is written, it won't be, oh, he didn't do it the right way. It'll be, did it work?

Right. Right. And facing charges.

Right. Right. And facing charges.

Oh, I think they did in the sense that, look, I agree with you that Trump won't reign forever. Right. The question is, what's the wreckage you leave behind? And we were talking before about how easy would it be to rebuild. I don't think if you come in in Brazil or Poland, you just rebuild right away and everything's cool. I think it takes many, many years to rebuild.

Oh, I think they did in the sense that, look, I agree with you that Trump won't reign forever. Right. The question is, what's the wreckage you leave behind? And we were talking before about how easy would it be to rebuild. I don't think if you come in in Brazil or Poland, you just rebuild right away and everything's cool. I think it takes many, many years to rebuild.

So if what we're talking about is, can you do four years of constitutional damage and then leave? I wouldn't consider that losing.

So if what we're talking about is, can you do four years of constitutional damage and then leave? I wouldn't consider that losing.

Well, one thing that a lot of people in Hungary were saying to me during the piece and then after the piece came out is one downside of talking about autocracy and strongmen and all this stuff is that people often use it as an excuse to turn their brains off and stop thinking creatively and stop trying to have a viable and vital opposition. So one is just... how strong is the civil resistance?

Well, one thing that a lot of people in Hungary were saying to me during the piece and then after the piece came out is one downside of talking about autocracy and strongmen and all this stuff is that people often use it as an excuse to turn their brains off and stop thinking creatively and stop trying to have a viable and vital opposition. So one is just... how strong is the civil resistance?

How strong is the private sector, public sector resistance? Another thing is, is the emergency sort of slow rolling and gradual enough that we start to just say, oh, well, he disappeared 10 people and eight of them were sent back. So the system is working. The system is holding. He merely got the universities to preemptively agree to some of his demands, not all of them.

How strong is the private sector, public sector resistance? Another thing is, is the emergency sort of slow rolling and gradual enough that we start to just say, oh, well, he disappeared 10 people and eight of them were sent back. So the system is working. The system is holding. He merely got the universities to preemptively agree to some of his demands, not all of them.

Therefore, the institutions are holding, right? So I would worry about a kind of shifting of goalposts in that sense.

Therefore, the institutions are holding, right? So I would worry about a kind of shifting of goalposts in that sense.

You know, an analogy I make in the piece is to climate change where you would think that at some point when enough of Canada was on fire and enough of the smoke in midtown Manhattan had reached the point where you couldn't go outside, everyone would look up and lock arms and say, the emergency is happening now. But in fact, that doesn't happen.

You know, an analogy I make in the piece is to climate change where you would think that at some point when enough of Canada was on fire and enough of the smoke in midtown Manhattan had reached the point where you couldn't go outside, everyone would look up and lock arms and say, the emergency is happening now. But in fact, that doesn't happen.

And so the main thing I worry about in terms of if we're in a slow-rolling democratic emergency is that we never have a chance to all get on the same page about it. And it continues being fractured and hybrid and weird. I mean, people I spoke to in Hungary, they all had different... timelines for when they sort of came to emotionally accept that they no longer lived in a democracy.

And so the main thing I worry about in terms of if we're in a slow-rolling democratic emergency is that we never have a chance to all get on the same page about it. And it continues being fractured and hybrid and weird. I mean, people I spoke to in Hungary, they all had different... timelines for when they sort of came to emotionally accept that they no longer lived in a democracy.