Andrew Revkin

and the whole vaccine thing.

And it gets back to what you said earlier that, again, you talked about collaborative cooperation or whatever.

There's a guy at Columbia, Peter Coleman, who runs this thing called the Difficult Conversations Laboratory.

Yeah.

And when I first heard about it, I was like, oh man, we need that, you know?

And his background's the psychology and conflict resolution, mostly at the global scale related to atrocities that countries are trying to get over.

And there's a science to how to hold a better conversation.

You either through experience or whatever, know.

If you hold a debate, like I wouldn't want to be in a debate with Bjorn.

We could find lots of things we disagree on.

But that takes it back to the win-lose model, right?

That's not how you make progress.

And what Peter, what I learned, absorbed from him, Peter Coleman, because I was thinking, like, we need room for agreement.

I need to build a room for agreement.

My blog at the Times and then the stuff I do now, you know, it's like, how can we talk and come to agreement?

He says, no, no, you don't want agreement.

You want cooperation.

That allows you to hold on to your beliefs.

We can disagree on all these things, but let's cooperate on that one thing.

And that's a really valuable distinction that's needed so much in this arena because