Andy Darroch

And bear in mind, this is very commonly not borrowing necessarily against completed assets.

I'm sure in a lot of cases it is, but not infrequently this will be things like mezzanine finance or developer finance.

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it's for property development, right?

Exactly.

It's not necessarily, hey, I've got this wonderful toll road.

Do you want to buy some debt against it?

As you say, it's very entwined with property development and it is high risk.

And one of the things with property is it can fall prey to exogenous shocks, right?

So there are potentially...

external factors that could impact you know the property market and i'm talking mostly for again developer and commercial property here but i suppose the other consideration is the thing that everyone with the benefit of hindsight is now talking about is that blue hour particularly is an investor that had a lot of tech exposure and the golden rule with you know credit investing is do not have too many eggs in one basket and so you look at the australian

you know context and you say well inherently it's just got a lot in property and you know perhaps that's a good thing right now but as you know as a seasoned credit manager i would think that they might look at that and say we'd rather a more diverse book of borrowings and again this will depend on what fund you're in what manager you're in and all manner of things but generally speaking we are in australia much more exposed to property in the private credit space

Okay.

Well, it's hard to say.

I think one of the, probably the greatest credit investor of all time, Howard Marks of Oak Tree did a really illuminating memo on this recently.

And his take was, look, it's probably not as bad as people think.

Again, it pays to remember it's a big space.

This is trillions of dollars.

There's

insurance companies, sovereign wealth companies, all the rest.

So I don't think it will erupt.