Anne Applebaum

And eventually it collapsed because the people who were running it, even they didn't believe in it. And that became clear by the 1980s.

That takes a long time. You'll be glad to know.

That takes a long time. You'll be glad to know.

That takes a long time. You'll be glad to know.

Usually it takes a long time. So in Poland, we had a sort of would-be autocratic populist political party in power. They had eight years in power and they didn't complete control, you know, and so they lost an election eventually.

Usually it takes a long time. So in Poland, we had a sort of would-be autocratic populist political party in power. They had eight years in power and they didn't complete control, you know, and so they lost an election eventually.

Usually it takes a long time. So in Poland, we had a sort of would-be autocratic populist political party in power. They had eight years in power and they didn't complete control, you know, and so they lost an election eventually.

Even though it was an unfair election, even though they captured part of the legal system in the courts, even though they had taken over state media and so on, you know, nevertheless, it was still possible to defeat them. In Venezuela, Chavez was very popular when he was first elected. And he was legitimately elected, democratically elected leader. He was very popular. He appealed to the poor.

Even though it was an unfair election, even though they captured part of the legal system in the courts, even though they had taken over state media and so on, you know, nevertheless, it was still possible to defeat them. In Venezuela, Chavez was very popular when he was first elected. And he was legitimately elected, democratically elected leader. He was very popular. He appealed to the poor.

Even though it was an unfair election, even though they captured part of the legal system in the courts, even though they had taken over state media and so on, you know, nevertheless, it was still possible to defeat them. In Venezuela, Chavez was very popular when he was first elected. And he was legitimately elected, democratically elected leader. He was very popular. He appealed to the poor.

He did a lot of things, especially at the moment when oil prices were high, when he could give away a lot of money and other things to poor Venezuelans. Even as he was destroying the independent institutions of the state, even as he was wrecking the civil service, for example, Venezuela had a state oil industry.

He did a lot of things, especially at the moment when oil prices were high, when he could give away a lot of money and other things to poor Venezuelans. Even as he was destroying the independent institutions of the state, even as he was wrecking the civil service, for example, Venezuela had a state oil industry.

He did a lot of things, especially at the moment when oil prices were high, when he could give away a lot of money and other things to poor Venezuelans. Even as he was destroying the independent institutions of the state, even as he was wrecking the civil service, for example, Venezuela had a state oil industry.

He fired, I think it's like 19 or 20,000 people from it and replaced them with loyalists. That was the beginning of the end of their oil industry. even as all that was happening, I've seen some statistics that say even kind of 10 years into that process, many Venezuelans still believed they lived in a democracy, even as the institutions of their democracy were dying.

He fired, I think it's like 19 or 20,000 people from it and replaced them with loyalists. That was the beginning of the end of their oil industry. even as all that was happening, I've seen some statistics that say even kind of 10 years into that process, many Venezuelans still believed they lived in a democracy, even as the institutions of their democracy were dying.

He fired, I think it's like 19 or 20,000 people from it and replaced them with loyalists. That was the beginning of the end of their oil industry. even as all that was happening, I've seen some statistics that say even kind of 10 years into that process, many Venezuelans still believed they lived in a democracy, even as the institutions of their democracy were dying.

It really only became crystal clear when people understood that it was impossible to elect anyone else. And we've had several attempts of the Venezuelan opposition to elect someone else, including a recent one last fall, in which the opposition won and nevertheless were not allowed to take power. And now it's clear that Venezuela is a dictatorship, but that took well over a decade, 20 years.

It really only became crystal clear when people understood that it was impossible to elect anyone else. And we've had several attempts of the Venezuelan opposition to elect someone else, including a recent one last fall, in which the opposition won and nevertheless were not allowed to take power. And now it's clear that Venezuela is a dictatorship, but that took well over a decade, 20 years.

It really only became crystal clear when people understood that it was impossible to elect anyone else. And we've had several attempts of the Venezuelan opposition to elect someone else, including a recent one last fall, in which the opposition won and nevertheless were not allowed to take power. And now it's clear that Venezuela is a dictatorship, but that took well over a decade, 20 years.

But the main point is that very often as this is happening, there are many people who voted and were not voting for authoritarianism or autocracy or anything like that. In fact, I would say most people didn't think that's what they were voting for. So I'm not saying that that happened. The decline of the institutions won't bother them until at a later stage when we see the impact.