Annie Jacobsen

You know, then the more modern names are targeted killing, right? Executive action, targeted killing, right? I mean, drone striking is essentially assassination. And, you know, people jump up and down and say that's not true. Well... I spent quite a long time interviewing the CIA's lead counsel, John Rizzo. He died recently.

You know, then the more modern names are targeted killing, right? Executive action, targeted killing, right? I mean, drone striking is essentially assassination. And, you know, people jump up and down and say that's not true. Well... I spent quite a long time interviewing the CIA's lead counsel, John Rizzo. He died recently.

You know, then the more modern names are targeted killing, right? Executive action, targeted killing, right? I mean, drone striking is essentially assassination. And, you know, people jump up and down and say that's not true. Well... I spent quite a long time interviewing the CIA's lead counsel, John Rizzo. He died recently.

But Rizzo was very forthcoming with me, of course, never sharing classified information, but going up to the edge of what can legally be known. Rizzo was thrown under the bus by sort of the general public for – he was the fall guy for the torture campaign. The CIA calls it enhanced interrogation. And so Rizzo had this long career.

But Rizzo was very forthcoming with me, of course, never sharing classified information, but going up to the edge of what can legally be known. Rizzo was thrown under the bus by sort of the general public for – he was the fall guy for the torture campaign. The CIA calls it enhanced interrogation. And so Rizzo had this long career.

But Rizzo was very forthcoming with me, of course, never sharing classified information, but going up to the edge of what can legally be known. Rizzo was thrown under the bus by sort of the general public for – he was the fall guy for the torture campaign. The CIA calls it enhanced interrogation. And so Rizzo had this long career.

You know, he began working under the Carter administration, right, and was responsible for the torture memos, was responsible for legally making sure the president's ass was covered, and then got thrown under the bus.

You know, he began working under the Carter administration, right, and was responsible for the torture memos, was responsible for legally making sure the president's ass was covered, and then got thrown under the bus.

You know, he began working under the Carter administration, right, and was responsible for the torture memos, was responsible for legally making sure the president's ass was covered, and then got thrown under the bus.

And so he was very forthcoming, not in a bitter way, but in a very earnest way about a lot of how these programs are made to be legal, because if the president of the United States says they're legal, they're legal. Executive Order 12333, you know, it says we don't assassinate, but it can be overwritten by another order. That's straight out of Rizzo's mouth, right?

And so he was very forthcoming, not in a bitter way, but in a very earnest way about a lot of how these programs are made to be legal, because if the president of the United States says they're legal, they're legal. Executive Order 12333, you know, it says we don't assassinate, but it can be overwritten by another order. That's straight out of Rizzo's mouth, right?

And so he was very forthcoming, not in a bitter way, but in a very earnest way about a lot of how these programs are made to be legal, because if the president of the United States says they're legal, they're legal. Executive Order 12333, you know, it says we don't assassinate, but it can be overwritten by another order. That's straight out of Rizzo's mouth, right?

Also really important to keep in mind is that the military operates under what's called Title 50. It's part of the National Security Code that gives like sort of, you know, rules and etc., how you must behave in a war theater, right? Well, the CIA is under no such rules. It operates under what's called Title 50.

Also really important to keep in mind is that the military operates under what's called Title 50. It's part of the National Security Code that gives like sort of, you know, rules and etc., how you must behave in a war theater, right? Well, the CIA is under no such rules. It operates under what's called Title 50.

Also really important to keep in mind is that the military operates under what's called Title 50. It's part of the National Security Code that gives like sort of, you know, rules and etc., how you must behave in a war theater, right? Well, the CIA is under no such rules. It operates under what's called Title 50.

And, you know, it's interesting to me as a reporter, because before I wrote the book and reported openly about Title 50, it was not really discussed. And now you even see operators themselves on podcasts talking about Title 50, which is kind of great, because it's like the cat's out of the bag, guys. That's what it's called, and that's how it works. It means what we say goes.

And, you know, it's interesting to me as a reporter, because before I wrote the book and reported openly about Title 50, it was not really discussed. And now you even see operators themselves on podcasts talking about Title 50, which is kind of great, because it's like the cat's out of the bag, guys. That's what it's called, and that's how it works. It means what we say goes.

And, you know, it's interesting to me as a reporter, because before I wrote the book and reported openly about Title 50, it was not really discussed. And now you even see operators themselves on podcasts talking about Title 50, which is kind of great, because it's like the cat's out of the bag, guys. That's what it's called, and that's how it works. It means what we say goes.

It says what the president wants, the president gets. Right. And so, I mean, the best example is the killing of bin Laden. Right. We were not at war with Pakistan. So Title 50 doesn't apply. You can't have a military operation in a country. You're not at war with – I mean, the lines, my God, now they've really blurred. But even then, they were a little more honored, right? And so what do you do?

It says what the president wants, the president gets. Right. And so, I mean, the best example is the killing of bin Laden. Right. We were not at war with Pakistan. So Title 50 doesn't apply. You can't have a military operation in a country. You're not at war with – I mean, the lines, my God, now they've really blurred. But even then, they were a little more honored, right? And so what do you do?