Annie Jacobsen

But it was also revenge.

Remember that?

There was like a score to settle with the previous generation.

And that, to me, was stunning.

And also that one of the guys, I love that they named everyone, but one of the chimp's brother, I think it was, like head chimp's brother, lost his arm in a poacher's trap.

Remember that?

And when you think about chimps and how important their arms are swinging from trees, like under – if you just followed the logic about survival of the fittest, then that chimp, the brother chimp would have died because he didn't have one of his hands.

But instead –

The other brother, the lead chimp, made sure he was taken care of, which is like so human war.

I still think about that.

Okay, so you think chimps were pointing and then from that you had to figure over long amounts of time.

You mean apes have evolved into the Stone Age?

They're catching up with us.

Okay.

Oh, wow.

Okay, so here's an interesting anecdote.

Nuclear war apes.

In 1975, there was this famous defense official who went from being a hawk to being like, we cannot have so many nuclear weapons.

His name was Paul Warnke.

And he wrote what was then a famous article in Foreign Policy Magazine called, Apes on a Treadmill.