Barry Wirth

I think there was probably considerable relief that the plane had disappeared, out of sight, out of mind. Initially, again, we didn't know that he was alive. We didn't know whether he was alive or dead. And it wasn't until late 1954 that the Chinese police tried and convicted Downey and sentenced him to life. And they announced it to the world at that point.

I think there was probably considerable relief that the plane had disappeared, out of sight, out of mind. Initially, again, we didn't know that he was alive. We didn't know whether he was alive or dead. And it wasn't until late 1954 that the Chinese police tried and convicted Downey and sentenced him to life. And they announced it to the world at that point.

I think there was probably considerable relief that the plane had disappeared, out of sight, out of mind. Initially, again, we didn't know that he was alive. We didn't know whether he was alive or dead. And it wasn't until late 1954 that the Chinese police tried and convicted Downey and sentenced him to life. And they announced it to the world at that point.

And now we're in the Eisenhower administration. John Foster Dulles is the Secretary of State. Alan Dulles, his younger brother, is the head of the CIA. And the United States immediately said, we don't know how the Chinese came into possession of these men. They never said anything about them. This is a wrongful detainment, an unlawful detainment, the same way that our

And now we're in the Eisenhower administration. John Foster Dulles is the Secretary of State. Alan Dulles, his younger brother, is the head of the CIA. And the United States immediately said, we don't know how the Chinese came into possession of these men. They never said anything about them. This is a wrongful detainment, an unlawful detainment, the same way that our

And now we're in the Eisenhower administration. John Foster Dulles is the Secretary of State. Alan Dulles, his younger brother, is the head of the CIA. And the United States immediately said, we don't know how the Chinese came into possession of these men. They never said anything about them. This is a wrongful detainment, an unlawful detainment, the same way that our

Evan Gershkovich and the other Americans who recently were swapped back were described.

Evan Gershkovich and the other Americans who recently were swapped back were described.

Evan Gershkovich and the other Americans who recently were swapped back were described.

Yeah, and cover was everything. Okay, deniability was everything. If they were to acknowledge that these guys were spies, our whole operation in the Far East would have been imperiled. So they just said... we don't know how the Chinese got them. This is typical of them. This is how they do things.

Yeah, and cover was everything. Okay, deniability was everything. If they were to acknowledge that these guys were spies, our whole operation in the Far East would have been imperiled. So they just said... we don't know how the Chinese got them. This is typical of them. This is how they do things.

Yeah, and cover was everything. Okay, deniability was everything. If they were to acknowledge that these guys were spies, our whole operation in the Far East would have been imperiled. So they just said... we don't know how the Chinese got them. This is typical of them. This is how they do things.

I mean, Dulles, both Dulles brothers, and it was particularly John Foster Dulles, who was the Secretary of State, were the point people on this. And Dulles insulted the Chinese. He derided the Chinese. He said, you know, but they did begin to think, you know, somehow if these guys are really alive, we have to try to get them back.

I mean, Dulles, both Dulles brothers, and it was particularly John Foster Dulles, who was the Secretary of State, were the point people on this. And Dulles insulted the Chinese. He derided the Chinese. He said, you know, but they did begin to think, you know, somehow if these guys are really alive, we have to try to get them back.

I mean, Dulles, both Dulles brothers, and it was particularly John Foster Dulles, who was the Secretary of State, were the point people on this. And Dulles insulted the Chinese. He derided the Chinese. He said, you know, but they did begin to think, you know, somehow if these guys are really alive, we have to try to get them back.

So they went to the United Nations and invited Dag Hammarskjöld, who was the general secretary at the time, to see what he could do. And he decided, as he said, to crash the gate. He contacted Zhao Enlai, the Chinese premier, and asked whether he could come to Beijing to talk about not only these prisoners, but other prisoners as well.

So they went to the United Nations and invited Dag Hammarskjöld, who was the general secretary at the time, to see what he could do. And he decided, as he said, to crash the gate. He contacted Zhao Enlai, the Chinese premier, and asked whether he could come to Beijing to talk about not only these prisoners, but other prisoners as well.

So they went to the United Nations and invited Dag Hammarskjöld, who was the general secretary at the time, to see what he could do. And he decided, as he said, to crash the gate. He contacted Zhao Enlai, the Chinese premier, and asked whether he could come to Beijing to talk about not only these prisoners, but other prisoners as well.

And the problem was that the other prisoners weren't spies and these guys were. And if they talked about it, it was going to raise questions not just about Downey and Factot, but the others as well. So it became very difficult to discuss. Of course, we had no direct discussions with the Chinese. We had no communication with the Chinese leadership for decades.

And the problem was that the other prisoners weren't spies and these guys were. And if they talked about it, it was going to raise questions not just about Downey and Factot, but the others as well. So it became very difficult to discuss. Of course, we had no direct discussions with the Chinese. We had no communication with the Chinese leadership for decades.