Brené Brown

It seems like it's being rewarded because that's what's visible in the short term.

And the long-term cost is much more difficult to connect the long-term cost to what I did as a leader or a parent.

No, you're exactly right.

I remember one of the things I used to say all the time early in the shame research when I was speaking about it publicly is you can change a child's behavior with shame on a dime.

but you are forever changing who they are.

Wow.

Yeah.

And you don't see the latter and you see the former.

Or you don't see the latter until it's too late.

Yeah, I mean, this could take me into a really terrible place with things I love like college sports, you know, where are we treating players or some...

Are shame-based coaches treating players as talent assets and commodities versus as people?

I remember being at the end of my freshman year of college.

I was a diver and one of the swim coaches came in and said, all right, according to NCAA rules, I can't obligate anybody to be here more than I think it was 15 hours a week.

Oh, yeah.

And he said, I can't tell anybody to be here more than 15 hours a week.

But I can tell you this.

If you're not here at least 30 hours a week, I will assume you're not on the team next year.

Okay, first of all, I mean, at minimum, the athletes who prioritize school in the offseason are getting shamed.

More likely, they're getting cut.

Yeah, this is...