Chris Hayes

So if you think about labor, right, labor long predates labor. labor as a wage commodity in the industrial revolution, right? Human beings did stuff with their effort and toil from the time that they essentially evolved, right? Like if you're hunting, gathering, picking berries, that's work.

And labor evolved into an agrarian feudal systems and all kinds of different ways of small shopkeepers that did work recognizably. But what happens in the industrial revolution is that that human effort is

And labor evolved into an agrarian feudal systems and all kinds of different ways of small shopkeepers that did work recognizably. But what happens in the industrial revolution is that that human effort is

gets embedded in a set of institutions, legal institutions, market institutions, that commodify it so that every hour of wage labor is equal to every other hour of wage labor and then sold on a market for a price.

gets embedded in a set of institutions, legal institutions, market institutions, that commodify it so that every hour of wage labor is equal to every other hour of wage labor and then sold on a market for a price.

And that's an enormous transformation in the human experience, total transformation in all social relations, political relations, economic relations, and also, crucially, the subjective experience of being alive in the world. I think something similar is happening with attention.

And that's an enormous transformation in the human experience, total transformation in all social relations, political relations, economic relations, and also, crucially, the subjective experience of being alive in the world. I think something similar is happening with attention.

And it started a while ago, the same way that the Industrial Revolution actually starts sort of earlier than we think of it at its peak. But we're reaching a crescendo where this thing, attention, which predates it being commodified, people have always paid attention to stuff, is now this market commodity that's extracted and sold.

And it started a while ago, the same way that the Industrial Revolution actually starts sort of earlier than we think of it at its peak. But we're reaching a crescendo where this thing, attention, which predates it being commodified, people have always paid attention to stuff, is now this market commodity that's extracted and sold.

So there's a prehistory here, which is that from the birth of what we would call recognizably modern media, and the penny press and magazines are probably the first place that you would call it that, particularly Benjamin Day's New York Sun, which has the idea that you charge people a penny for a newspaper, you lose money on each newspaper, but you sell the advertising, right?

So there's a prehistory here, which is that from the birth of what we would call recognizably modern media, and the penny press and magazines are probably the first place that you would call it that, particularly Benjamin Day's New York Sun, which has the idea that you charge people a penny for a newspaper, you lose money on each newspaper, but you sell the advertising, right?

So the thing you're selling is the audience. Modern media has had this model for a long time, and basically it's all been selling attention. Billboards, newspapers, magazines, radios, TV. There's a few things that make it a difference in kind now, I would say.

So the thing you're selling is the audience. Modern media has had this model for a long time, and basically it's all been selling attention. Billboards, newspapers, magazines, radios, TV. There's a few things that make it a difference in kind now, I would say.

One is the sophistication of how minutely you could capture people's attention and how quickly and sophisticatedly you could bring it to market. So you've now got these nanosecond auctions that are auctioning off your eyeballs and in the moment you're loading a webpage or in the moment that Instagram Reels is going through. So that's one change. The other is just the ubiquity.

One is the sophistication of how minutely you could capture people's attention and how quickly and sophisticatedly you could bring it to market. So you've now got these nanosecond auctions that are auctioning off your eyeballs and in the moment you're loading a webpage or in the moment that Instagram Reels is going through. So that's one change. The other is just the ubiquity.

The TV can't travel with you. Magazines can, but eventually you read everything in the New Yorker and that's it. The birth of the smartphone produces a ubiquity of attention to be captured and sold that just represents a kind of break.

The TV can't travel with you. Magazines can, but eventually you read everything in the New Yorker and that's it. The birth of the smartphone produces a ubiquity of attention to be captured and sold that just represents a kind of break.

I agree. And I think, you know, when you had Graham Burnett on the show, who's great on this and attention researcher, you know, he talks about fracking, right? And the point of the metaphor fracking, right, is that you need more supply. So, you know, there used to be a certain category of oil you could get, and then market demand said you had to go get more of it, and they figured out a way.

I agree. And I think, you know, when you had Graham Burnett on the show, who's great on this and attention researcher, you know, he talks about fracking, right? And the point of the metaphor fracking, right, is that you need more supply. So, you know, there used to be a certain category of oil you could get, and then market demand said you had to go get more of it, and they figured out a way.

And there is something very similar happening, obviously, here, right? The expanded supply. So, like, eating into your sleep hours, that's more supply. Getting children, that's more supply. Looking at two or three things at once, which would have seemed totally, like, antisocial and borderline deranged. Two or three years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago.