Chris Hayes

That the fact that podcasts have built audiences largely outside of algorithmic feeds, have built them through an open protocol called RSS, right? that that technical backbone actually matters for precisely what you're talking about.

That the fact that podcasts have built audiences largely outside of algorithmic feeds, have built them through an open protocol called RSS, right? that that technical backbone actually matters for precisely what you're talking about.

Part of the reason podcasts have flourished, two, three-hour podcasts, podcasts with novelists about obscure topics, long solo monologues about history, I mean, all sorts of stuff, is because they're not embedded in the same technical attentional marketplace. And I think that really matters a lot.

Part of the reason podcasts have flourished, two, three-hour podcasts, podcasts with novelists about obscure topics, long solo monologues about history, I mean, all sorts of stuff, is because they're not embedded in the same technical attentional marketplace. And I think that really matters a lot.

And I think it's actually really hopeful because I think one of the things to remember here, this is really an important point, Everyone has wiped this from their memory, but the first version of the mass internet was an entirely commercially engineered mass internet with Prodigy, CompuServe, and AOL. AOL emerged as the winner. AOL acquired Time Warner.

And I think it's actually really hopeful because I think one of the things to remember here, this is really an important point, Everyone has wiped this from their memory, but the first version of the mass internet was an entirely commercially engineered mass internet with Prodigy, CompuServe, and AOL. AOL emerged as the winner. AOL acquired Time Warner.

AOL was the bell of the ball in this huge company, and it was a walled garden, and you dialed up, and you were in this little world that was curated by these large commercial entities. And that was destroyed, partly, ironically, because of Marc Andreessen's development of a graphical user interface, to open internet. That rewarded curiosity. That rewarded people connecting about obscure topics.

AOL was the bell of the ball in this huge company, and it was a walled garden, and you dialed up, and you were in this little world that was curated by these large commercial entities. And that was destroyed, partly, ironically, because of Marc Andreessen's development of a graphical user interface, to open internet. That rewarded curiosity. That rewarded people connecting about obscure topics.

It rewarded hobbyism. It rewarded obsessive small little corners of knowledge. It's already been the case once that open internet animated by curiosity defeated a closed commercial internet. It doesn't have to be the case that the version of the commercial internet we have now is still the same one. That to me is really hopeful, though, you know, because it's like we have divided selves.

It rewarded hobbyism. It rewarded obsessive small little corners of knowledge. It's already been the case once that open internet animated by curiosity defeated a closed commercial internet. It doesn't have to be the case that the version of the commercial internet we have now is still the same one. That to me is really hopeful, though, you know, because it's like we have divided selves.

We have divided desires. There's different parts of us that want different things and different market setups, technical setups, institutional setups can cultivate different parts of those selves. It's not like we lose one part or another. The other part is still there. It's a question about the systems around us drawing forth those different parts of us or not.

We have divided desires. There's different parts of us that want different things and different market setups, technical setups, institutional setups can cultivate different parts of those selves. It's not like we lose one part or another. The other part is still there. It's a question about the systems around us drawing forth those different parts of us or not.

So first I'll start with a classic, which is Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death. The goat. The goat. In this discourse, I think it still totally holds up. The first chapter, which is... Somewhat predicts Donald Trump. Yes, totally. In an explicit way. Yes. Totally, yes. In an explicit way.

So first I'll start with a classic, which is Neil Postman's Amusing Ourselves to Death. The goat. The goat. In this discourse, I think it still totally holds up. The first chapter, which is... Somewhat predicts Donald Trump. Yes, totally. In an explicit way. Yes. Totally, yes. In an explicit way.

Also, you know, the first essay, which is just about different versions of the dystopian future between 1984, which is Information Constraint, and Brave New World, which is overflow of entertainment and information about how we ended up in the Brave New World. Great.

Also, you know, the first essay, which is just about different versions of the dystopian future between 1984, which is Information Constraint, and Brave New World, which is overflow of entertainment and information about how we ended up in the Brave New World. Great.

Another book that has been mentioned on your podcast a lot and relevant, which is, again, I feel like I'm sort of citing canonical texts here. And it's important for me to do because I want to be clear, as we all are as authors, you You know, lots of people have been thinking about this very well and very hard. But Jenny O'Dell's How to Do Nothing is a fantastic book.

Another book that has been mentioned on your podcast a lot and relevant, which is, again, I feel like I'm sort of citing canonical texts here. And it's important for me to do because I want to be clear, as we all are as authors, you You know, lots of people have been thinking about this very well and very hard. But Jenny O'Dell's How to Do Nothing is a fantastic book.

It's strange and distinct and is much more, I would say, like, spiritually omnivorous than the book that I've written. More sort of interior in its focus, too, about how you do this work with yourself and And with other people as a kind of like collective radical undertaking.

It's strange and distinct and is much more, I would say, like, spiritually omnivorous than the book that I've written. More sort of interior in its focus, too, about how you do this work with yourself and And with other people as a kind of like collective radical undertaking.