Chris Voss
Appearances
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So the thought of traveling all over the world as a job in law enforcement appealed to me. At the time, the Secret Service was not hiring. The FBI was. I had no idea the difference between the FBI or the CIA or the Secret Service or the FDA.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I didn't think the writer should do research. You know, my thought was I'm subject matter, your style.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Interview me and let's go. And unbeknownst to me at the time, like Tal inhaled every book on negotiation he could find. So then as we're going through it, first of all, I begin to see echoes of other books in his questions. So he'd ask me a question. I'm like, ah, you gathered that insight for that question from reading Jim Camp's book, Start With No.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And so then as we're going through the material, Paul, having done his research, he didn't take anything that I said at face value. My son Brandon had a lot of input at the time also. Um, but you know, he, he would, he would challenge us and he makes it better, makes it better because what an expert forgets is what it's like not to know.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And he said something to the effect of, you know, what about this concept of strategic umbrage where you act angry to get your way? Use anger as a tool. And my answer to that was like, all right, it's a stupid idea. And his response was, all right, we're going to need a little more than that. Because it's so obvious to you, you forgot what it's like not to know.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
It seems like opportunity to chill on the way.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So you have to explain it in much more depth than that. And there were a number of things that he was great at. So, you know, why did I bring Tull up when a book first comes out?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
It was a two-step process. There was another writer that did a book proposal. Okay.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And my agent, Steve Ross, he was caught off guard. He didn't think they'd talk to a lot of agents. They said the world doesn't need another negotiation book. Steve didn't say that, but Steve did say, I'm not sure how this is going to do domestically, but I know I can sell the heck out of this internationally. And now because of Steve Ross, it's in over 40 countries, 36 languages.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So he distributes it to the publishers and the publishers go nuts. And we got a hold of an auction. It was a frenzy. And we held it over, you know, as it coming up on Halloween, publishers are all in New York, Halloween parties on Friday. Like it was funny.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
They're bidding on the book while they're hanging out the Halloween parties, which in the United States is more people get locked up for a drunk driving on Halloween than any other holiday.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So people are partying on Halloween and we get this auction going. And in the middle of the auction, publishers, while they like the proposal, they're balking at the guy that wrote the proposal because he doesn't have a track record of this type of book. And the deal then ends up being contingent on that issue. I had spoken to Tall previously and been unable to make the deal.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah, and it's kind of like the publisher is the venture capitalist, and you're telling them why it's a good investment. Yes. And so, Tall's great expertise is the book. He could write a great proposal, he's not particularly interested in doing that, which I've come to learn since. But at the time, I got no money,
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
everybody's telling me that the publishers are, some people are saying nobody's going to want this. Other people are saying, I don't know if the world needs another negotiation book. And I sit down with Tal and he outlines what he needs to make it work, which is how you should do a deal. You should never leave a doubt in the other person's mind what it's going to take to make the deal.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And Tal, a very genuine dude, and he laid it out to me and he said, I think the idea is great. I don't know how it's going to do. And if I was just starting out and it was just me, you know, I'd do it strictly on a percentage basis.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Or just a proposal? The proposal and the idea.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah. And so he said, look, I got a family. And if I don't work for, if I'm not working on your book, I'm going to be working on somebody else's book. And this is how much money I'm going to get.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And so for me to take a step back, and go for a year without pay on a hope. I can't do that to my family. You know, we got a house, I got kids, I got a mortgage. I can't go without work on a hope for 18 months. So here's what it would take to make it work. And at the time I didn't have it. And I had no idea. In hindsight, of course, hindsight. It was worth more than that and has been.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So we go through the proposal process and we're, we got to fire the writer. And I go like, eh, we're at a point now we can make it work with tall. And so we got a proposal. We got back to him. He always liked the idea. He was always open to it. He had to look out for his family. Sure, of course. And so we make the deal. And he's an artist. He's Leonardo da Vinci of business books.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And he writes in these crazy, crazy ways. He did the middle part of the book first. Like, that makes no sense. Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I think... My father taught me how to figure things out. Hard work, integrity, figure it out. My father was a small town Iowa, blue collar entrepreneur, owned his own business, but it was very blue collar business. Fuel oil services, worked for my dad, you had to be prepared to get dirty and fix things.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
You know, he takes a deep dive. He like disappears into another dimension. He just goes away. He loves to have a mountain of information dropped on his head and he wants to immerse himself and then come out the other side, which he does. And so we get the book done in less time than he wanted. God bless him, he was willing to do it faster than what he would normally do.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And then what I'm getting to, long story, point of the story, when the book came out, he says to me, don't rely on a publisher to hustle this. You're going to have to work your ass off for at least a year, if not two. Now, if there's one thing my father taught me was hard work. And I'm like, dude, you know what? I'm going to put the hammer down. I'm never going to let up.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
You think you've seen people work hard before. You know, if you're in a boss family line, you understand how to work hard. And that is really what made all the difference in the world have been relentlessly getting at, you know, spreading the gospel just have not let up since the book came out. And that's why it's out there. It did that.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Were you speaking a lot before the book or did the book, no book came out and then get stages and then a little bit, you know, a little bit, you get traction here and there and then you break through different levels and there's certain levels of recognition. The masterclass, um, how did that come about? Huge difference. Um, after the book came out, Yeah, serendipity. What was the serendipity?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I get invited to speak at a conference in Chicago, Chicago Ideas, I think it was. At one point in time, I'd been affiliated with Oprah Winfrey, and there were people on a Chicago Ideas staff that had worked for Oprah at some point in time. Because, you know, Chicago, it's her town, and she's doing as much as she could to support it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So I'm on a three-person panel with one young lady who was Oprah's booker. talented woman and um the other and the first young lady's name will come back to me in a minute but the other young lady is constant swartz marini michael strahan's business partner oh that's good and she negotiated deon sanders deal with colorado
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Now, what she is is this phenomenally hardworking female who spots talent, used to work for the NFL, and when she was doing PR for the NFL, a young Michael Strahan was willing to do PR with the NFL. She spotted a guy with all this emotional intelligence. She saw the diamond in the rough. And they hit it off then and have remained business partners.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And so there's been this interesting collection of people that have stuck with her and her business forever.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah, well, spotting talent, emotional intelligence, and she's in a PR and she's in a Hollywood business. So she has worked with Dion, very supportive of him. Dion Sanders, Snoop Dogg, Wiz Khalifa, Aaron Andrews. Like a really interesting, diverse collection of really smart, emotionally intelligent, decent people. Yeah. And there, so I ended up on this panel with her.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And so we're talking back and forth, but related to the panel, then a woman on Chicago Ideas then goes to work for Masterclass. And at Masterclass, she brings, she says, hey, you know, David Roger, the founder, she says, you know, I ran across this guy, Chris Voss, and he's got this book, Never Split the Difference Out.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So between the connection from Chicago Ideas and the book, they decided to take a roll of dice on me.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And good news, bad news, you like working for a guy that would never ask you to do anything he wouldn't do himself? And there was nothing that was beneath him. So if needed to get done, you know, if he's delivering, if he owns a gas station and a toilet's backed up in a gas station, he'd get in there and clean it himself. So he figured that you should have no misgivings about doing anything.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
They did a phenomenal job. Fantastic production. They made it easy to perform. The Masterclass shoot was like a movie studio shoot.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
A thousand percent professional. But what they do, too, is they do everything they can because they're going to bring you in. If you're the million-dollar racehorse... For two days, they're going to make you run your ass off. Yeah, let's go. Get there early one day, work me as hard as they can possibly work me for two straight days, and then design it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And like the little things, I got such a kick out of it. And that's the first time you'd ever done anything like that, right? I had no idea what it was going to be like. So decision fatigue is an issue. They don't need me burning up brain cells on deciding where to park. Yeah. So I pull up to the studio. They got orange cones from, they got one parking space on a studio lot. It's for me. Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
It's got my name on it, but it stops me from driving around a block trying to figure out where to park. Sure. Maintaining my brain power. Yeah. Plus you get treated like a King, the little things, the little things. And then, then they get in there and they got a personal assistant attached to me at the hip. Watching me. Do you need to go to the bathroom? You need a glass of water.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
You need a cup of coffee. Cause they don't need me burning in brain cells on nonsense. Anything. so then what they do is they expect you to get in the harness and give you 1000% for eight to 10 hours, which you can do if you're not burning up brain cells on anything else. So that's why I've always been super impressed with how smart they are in their production.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
No, like, like,
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Pretty much. It's, you know, I've always looked at life as like an adventure and a bit of a battle that I'm up for and engage in battles that are privilege. And if you think it's a privilege as opposed to a burden, Like when it's a privilege, you don't run out of gas. You're eager to get up in the morning. If it's a burden, then it sucks the life out of you.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And I've stuck to the stuff that I felt was a privilege.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Well, yeah, we've kicked around sort of the reality TV show, non-scripted TV show. I'm very much a believer in serendipity these days. So we've come close a couple times. And I believe in zero expectations. A businessman in D.C. once told me that. Zero expectations mean you're never disappointed. Yeah. And you're frequently delighted, but you're never disappointed.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So, you know, I think a script, a non-scripted show where we're doing negotiations on both sides is a great idea. And it's one fell through completely with a network that was, you know, they were making promises with one person and taking them away with another person.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Not surprising. And then, then took a run at it again recently, um, with Mark Wahlberg's production company, unrealistic ideas. And they worked really hard on it and just nobody, uh, nobody in LA bet. Yeah. And so from my view is number one, I'm grateful for the people I met at unrealistic ideas, bunch of interesting cats.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Uh, uh, they put together, uh, uh, yeah, uh, we didn't get out and, um, do any negotiations per se, but they, you know, they talked to me, they talked to members of my team. And so we got some really interesting stuff on that. But to me, I met in, in a process, uh,
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
uh the dude that runs unrealistic ideas archie he's an interesting cat yeah like his backstory is fascinating and i'm just glad i got to meet him at all yeah and all the people that i met along the way so that's still a win that's still a win it's a win it's totally what i get i get interesting stories from these people about their backgrounds that i'm like wow i'm glad i met these guys yeah that's awesome well let's talk a little bit about the the real estate book
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So, and also he'd give you a list of things to do, not necessarily tell you how to get them done. Yeah. So you had to figure a lot of stuff out. So learn how to work hard, how to figure stuff out at an early age. And the basics of negotiation is figuring it out and attention and learning.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Nice. Which is, it's a competitive market.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Steve Shaw, great guy. Another dude with a very interesting background. Like, for example, I knew Steve for a year and a half, maybe, before I knew he was a Super Bowl captain. I knew he played in the NFL, but consider the flip side. Normally, if you talk to a former guy from the NFL... It's the first thing he says. Yeah, five seconds in, you know he played in the Super Bowl.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And Steve didn't just play, he was a captain. But that's in his rearview mirror. So... Steve was a big believer in hard, always still a big believer in hard work, but what he used to call fact, logic, and reason approach to real estate. And because he worked so hard, he made a lot of money. And having been a very coachable player, he decides, I will coach people to make the same money that I make.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So he's doing this old, what he refers to as fact logic and reason, and he says he stumbles over and never split the difference because he's a great consumer of information and realizes he's got to do a 180 in approach. And he talks about the epiphany moment. And so then he reached out and he said, look, this is, I'm rethinking everything. And I'm coaching, so here's my proposal.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I do a monthly coaching call. You come on. I'll lead the way. You answer questions. I'm like, oh, awesome. All I got to do is show up. I can do that. And so we started going back and forth, and we started changing the entire conversation. Like back then, everybody he coached, he coached them on how to do a great listening presentation. Don't do them at all now.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
No presentation whatsoever until you have a signed agreement. And we were talking about today because we did a monthly call. He says nine years ago, people would freak out over that concept. He says now nobody that I'm coaching does pre-listing presentations. Nobody. Nobody. and why and how it works.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So I think that's, I applied these ideas to this particular area, but I think it would be applicable to any area.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
You get into it a little bit at a time, but the real concept is what we refer to as the favorite and the fool. In every game, there's a favorite and a fool. And if you don't know who the fool in the game is, it's you. So there are patterns. Now, people don't mean to play you for the fool in the game. In the ordinary course of business, it's accepted.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
which is why detecting deception or inauthenticity from the other side, if the other side doesn't feel they're being inauthentic, there's nothing to detect. Yeah. But there are patterns. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. How did you make a critical decision in the past? How you made it is you gathered information, you talked to a bunch of people, you made yourself smart.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
After making yourself smart, you went to your trusted advisor and you took your trusted advisor's advice, which means the chances of you getting the listing if you're not recommended by the trusted advisor are very low. So does that pattern show up early on? Are they coming to you to kick the tires? Are they coming to you for due diligence?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And you, for example, in your business, if you're number one, you're by definition due diligence. Because if I'm going to do due diligence... I'm going to go pick the brain of the guy who's winning the market.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Now he might convert me, but only if I've been converted cold in the past, only if I'm smart enough to really be able to think for myself, eight out of 10 people are going to do what their trusted advisor tells them to do. So how can you manifest that early on? How can I get you to tell me that? I can get you to tell me that if I know what I'm looking for.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Via my father's disappointment.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
There's some emotional intelligence approaches. Vision drives decision. What does that mean? In our early conversation, I need to know what your vision moving forward is. I need to be able to actually listen to it and figure out whether I'm part of that vision. Example. People used to approach me in Hollywood all the time to give them ideas for movies.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And a lawyer did this to me in a lawsuit one time. Well, you know, if we know what you're going to say, then we'll hire you to say it. Cool. Because I'm the only one that can say this. So I might as well tell you because you can't get anybody else to say it. This is a lawsuit that I was being brought in as a consultant.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Lay out to us what you're going to say, what you're going to testify to on the stand. You're the only one that can say this. Tell us what it is. I laid it out. I never heard from him again. But they do. They went to somebody that cost less than me and gave them the script. Hollywood, let me know what kind of stories you're going to tell us.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So at about age 16, I saw this movie, The Super Cops, about two New York City cops that were wildly creative, wildly inventive. I didn't realize how much they were mavericks at the time. I was just struck by their creativity. They did a lot of good. They locked up a lot of bad guys in bad areas of New York City. And the community loved them.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I get approached about five years ago on behalf of one of the highest profile movie stars who I genuinely have a tremendous amount of regard for, which is saying a lot for a movie star. Because they're not original. They say what people told them to say. And so I said, give us some ideas. Now, I suspect that this dude's playing me, picking my brain.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And so I say to him, all right, you know, I'm going to play along a little. I give him a little bit of a story. And so I go, so how would this proceed? How are you going to move forward? And he starts laying out the process to me. And he realizes halfway through he's telling a story that I'm not part of. That's what I'm listening for.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
and about, Three minutes in, he suddenly changes the pronouns that he's using from a consultant to me because he catches himself. Dude's playing me. He's pumping me for information. He's going to take me to the consultant that he always uses, who's a lot less expensive than I am. He's going to hand him the script and say... Develop this. Yeah, do this.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So unfortunately, uh, this is human nature because this, this goes on most of the time. I once did this by accident. We're searching for an HR consultant in my company. We got an accountant who's our trusted advisor. We tell the accountant we're looking for an HR consultant and he says, here's who I recommend. However, talk to this company over here just to see what they say, which means,
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
whatever they say that's different, then just go back to the one I recommend and tell them they got to do that too.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And so we, we get this company on the phone and I remember being on this very long conversation where we are picking this guy's brain. And I, and I realized to myself, am I playing this guy for the fool? Yeah. And I think to myself, I wouldn't do that. I'm a good person. I would never play anybody for a fool. And then I ask myself the follow-on question, am I ever going to hire this guy? No.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
My trusted advisor didn't recommend him. So what I'm trying to say is every industry does this. Nobody does it and realizes... what they're really doing because they're taught that it's common accepted practice. So what does that mean in your business or anybody's business? Find out whether or not their vision of the future includes you. Find out what caused them to talk to you in the first place.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Find out how they made decisions in the past. Now, if you're number one in this market, and you are, if you guys went and looked at your numbers,
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
It would be because you become the trusted advisor to so many people and your referrals are ridiculously strong because you came through, you navigated and the people that work for you navigated people through one of the five most difficult times of their lives. And you preserved them. You didn't lie to them. You didn't tell them what they wanted to hear. You delivered on your promises.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
These were white cops in a black neighborhood, and black people in the neighborhood loved them because they cared about having a great neighborhood. So these guys served the community. And color disappears when you do that. But I was always struck at how creative these guys were. So I wanted to be a cop.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And when they wanted to list a house for more than the market would bear, you found a way to let them know without hurting their feelings. That it wasn't gonna work. That it wasn't gonna work. And so then you guys don't get fired because you lied to them about what it was gonna sell for.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And then through the course of the transaction, because what I'm hearing is not only is this, of all the things that make this about the most difficult real estate market in about 40 years, one of the things is the percentage of contracts that have fallen out before they close.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And not just a lot, but I'm sure you probably figure it's like the worst you've ever seen.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah, so you guys are navigating your clients honestly.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And I'm going to interrupt you for two seconds because the insight to that, that your emotional intelligence has gotten you to, you said makes sense to the client, not makes sense to you. Yeah. It doesn't need to make sense to me. So then that that's the whole premise of empathy, right? What makes sense to your counterpart, not what makes sense to you. Right.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And you've stumbled over that probably somewhere in your background. I promise you the seeds of it were planted from your parents and your upbringing. That awareness was planted in your head and has guided you through every now. You didn't stick to it at all times. You made your own mistakes. Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
But at some point in time you came back to it and it was either the two lines of code somewhere in your brain. You just got to make sense of the other side.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Amen.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I wanted to be a cop in a big city, growing up in a small town in Iowa, what I imagined it would be like. The deal my father had with all his kids was I'll pay for four years of education post high school if you can get into a college. And it's probably gotta be in state, state school, affordable. He's not gonna send you to any private school out of state or even in state.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Here's the other thing I like about that approach. I read decision surveys constantly. And one of the critical issues in selecting a vendor is their knowledge of the landscape. Now, what you just laid out was a very nuanced knowledge of the market because you're talking about percentages. You're talking about feedback from the market. You're talking about target sweet spots in the market.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And this is the knowledge of the landscape that nobody's going to get by going on one of these sites that says sell your house without an agent. Yeah. Yeah, they're not.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Now you can make the deal.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Right.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah, no, and it's dead on. Plus, if you hear something from the other side that's insane.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
All right, so if that's true, here's what would flatter me about that. Okay. The people that really study our stuff At some point in time, they start within the confines of what we refer to as a discipline. Think of it as a martial art. They start coming up with new stuff on their own. And I'll ask them, like, where did you hear that? And they, I probably got it from you.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And I'll think, well, that's nuanced enough that I'd have remembered thinking that up, which means you thought it up. But you've studied it so much that you've just got to this higher level. In martial arts, they say you study the master until you're making up your own rules and it still fits. Yeah. And that's where it goes. Yeah, that's a cool thing. That's a very cool thing. I love that.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
But I'll pay for four years. If you don't graduate, that's on you. So I graduate four years. I go down and apply to Kansas City, Missouri Police Department. So my father pays for a four year degree and I go down and get a job that only requires a high school diploma. but he realized that I was committed to it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I don't try to turn it off, but then the issue is what's the intent? Yeah. So if your intent is to manipulate, your heart's in the wrong place. Your intent is to connect on whatever you do for a living. Like my intent is to connect. My intent is you and I, whoever you and I are, that we have this phenomenal relationship of trust and prosperity that spans at least 20 years.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Now your description of what you were just talking about was because your intent was to deliver a great customer experience and have people want to come back and be patrons of the restaurant and recommend the restaurant, as opposed to you trying to max the profits.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Now you do want to max the profits, but if it's your primary intent, you become a mercenary, you become transactional, and people don't want to come back because they smell it. Yeah. But if your intent is to deliver great experience that people want to tell their friends about because they're proud to be your ambassador because you're not going to let them down.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So you shouldn't turn it off because you love delivering a service that also contributes to your own prosperity. Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah, exactly. I completely agree.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
No, no, no. I play the numbers first. And then I get smarter based on the data they get in the interaction. And my belief is that probably you could blindly trust 70% of the people you come across. And there's some other numbers that probably increase the numbers even higher. There's other data, but sort of low point, 70%.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And so he thought, well, if a kid's going to stay in law enforcement, he should be the best he could be. And so he started to encourage me to federal law enforcement. So, you know, as the outside perception, a great investigators are great cops at all levels, at all levels. He introduces me to a friend of his that was with the secret service.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And so then the ones you can't trust, whatever their percentage is, they're going to have a pattern. So I lean in the direction of trusting people, but I also know what I'm looking for that are quick red lights.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So somebody says, I got a great opportunity for you. They're either suckering you intentionally or they're just naive. And a shark tank. An entrepreneur stands up in front of them, starts talking about the size of the addressable market. Sharks are out. Yeah, the potential of the... There's a lot of potential. There's a great opportunity.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I'm out. So then there's certain other nuances. Everybody that's tried to get me to do a lot for nothing, every one of them has said, let's do a win-win deal. Now that doesn't mean that everybody says win-win is trying to get me to do it for nothing.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
But every one of them that was trying to get me to do it for nothing also said that. Yeah. So it's a high percentage correlation with somebody who's not, who's hustling me, but it's not one for one, probably eight out of 10. So I'll start to collect the yellow flags and, and then you start getting an accumulation of yellow flags, now you got a problem.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So if you start off, if you say, look, got a win-win deal, you know, that's a great opportunity. Those are two really big yellow flags right off the bat.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah. Well, masterclass brought us a concept of doing a Chris Voss AI and masterclass has been a great partner. They know what they're doing. Their marketing is great. They're very smart people. I've made multiple deals with them on multiple things, and they've always been great partners. Always wanted to make the best deal that we could make possibly. And they implement like crazy.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And the guy says, yeah, I traveled all over the world with the secret service. And I was like, wow. Like where I grew up, crossing the state line into Illinois was a big deal. Yeah. Just cornfields and cows, I'm guessing. Cornfields and cows and small towns. So the thought of traveling all over the world as a job in law enforcement appealed to me.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Now everybody's wanting to do AI. There's, you know, like homeless dude on the street corner is probably pitching me on AI. You know, it's out there everywhere. So it's inescapable. And I thought, okay, if we're going to jump in, who's a better partner in the masterclass? I don't know that we have a better partner in the masterclass. So that to start with. And then to make it better, it's a bot.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
It's a database. And it's going to be fed on the quality of the data we can put into it. And so they said, well, our competitive edge is you've got to feed us stuff that nobody else can get at. because the other pretend Chris Voss AI bots that are out there, you know, they're going from the book. Yeah, read the book. They could get all my YouTube masterclasses, give us stuff nobody else has got.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So you're feeding case studies to this thing. Case studies, e-mails. you know, internal emails that has how I talk to the people that I work with, how we work stuff out stuff that is not publicly available. So the quality of their data is better than the quality of anybody else's data. So then, then they start at today, they rolled it out. We've been waiting for it to roll out for a while.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And a guy works for me. He says, hey, you know, I loaded it on my phone. You want to hear what it sounds like? And I go, yeah, sure, why not? So he turns it on and says, welcome to the Chris Voss AI on negotiation. How can I help you? Is it your voice? Yeah, it's my voice. You know, we're hearing me. And I'll tell you what the wacky side fear is going to be after I tell the story.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So I'm a smart aleck, right? I'm a smart aleck. I make smart aleck remarks. And so he's got the phone right there, and I go, my boss is picking on me. And it says, sounds like you feel targeted. What's going on? And I'm like, whoa. Like, that nailed it. Like, that was a perfect response. Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And then he told me that he did a pretend thing where he's going to use it to negotiate the purchase of a car. Because what are you going to use this for? You need a sounding board. It's going to give you good, you know, 85% right. It's 85% right, which beats 20% right, which beats 30% right. Sure. This is a good number. 85% is great. 85 is a good number.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So he says, yeah, I'm a little nervous about this car negotiation. And Chris Voss AI says, nervous? Which is a great mirror. It helps settle you down. So from what I've seen of it today, I'm very impressed with it. We're going to recommend it to all our clients because if they can get the negotiation 85% right, they're probably going to come up with a better outcome than they would have otherwise.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And then if they come to us for coaching, if they're 85% of the way there, but they need the nuance that I can only think up in the moment, then I got less distance to take them to get them across the finish line. So here's my fear. You know that movie a long time ago, Her.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Joaquin Phoenix falling in love with the voice of Scarlett Johansson. I'm like, oh, man. how many people am I going to become Scarlett Johansson to?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
They're going to fall in love with their Chris Voss AI.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I'm going to try to keep it PG as we can. Let me be that dad. I can live with that.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
It was a fun conversation. If you want to try the Chris Voss AI, just get the Masterclass subscription. Stupid cheap to begin with.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And then there's an add-on fee, of course.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
But it's just cool. I mean, I'm getting great feedback. And then what will it do for you?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
it'll cover a lot of ground. And I gotta tell you, you want me to consult? Number one, it's expensive.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
At the time, the Secret Service was not hiring, the FBI was. I had no idea the difference between the FBI or the CIA or the Secret Service or the FDA. You know, federal alphabet. So I applied for the Secret Service, not hiring, the Bureau is. I apply and it happened to have a hiring push on. And I get in and it was amazing.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Number two, it's got to fill it on a calendar. Number three, the best time is about 10 o'clock in the morning. This is a big advantage of the AI. It's never tired. It's never in a bad mood. It's always there. You need consulting at 1 o'clock in the morning, 4 o'clock in the morning, because you're doing business with somebody on the other side of the world.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
It's 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and they're dictating the time of the meeting. You're not going to get me on the phone at 4 o'clock in the morning. No. The AI will tide you over until you can't get me on the phone.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Now the degree is what got me in. What was your degree in? At Iowa State University, at the time they called it industrial administration. It is now the business school. It was a business degree. Okay. And I get in, the minimums to get into the Bureau are a four-year college degree, three years of life experience, bare minimums. An advanced degree, you can get in with two years.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Some degrees, they'll take you right away, but it's a bad idea. You need the seasoning of the real world. to get into the bureau. In three years is actually a short period of time.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
That would be the case, right? But I get in. I was second youngest person in my class to graduate. The youngest guy, the only guy younger than me, ended up being my partner in New York City. And we had a long run together that worked really well. But so I get into the Bureau, originally wanted to be on a SWAT team.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
When I left the police department, I was two weeks away from being transferred to the SWAT team. And so got on the SWAT team, FBI Pittsburgh, first office. Went on a couple of SWAT operations. Got transferred to New York City, decided to try out for the FBI's hostage rescue team, which is the FBI's version of the Navy SEALs, and there are a lot of former SEALs and former Delta guys on that team.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And so we had hostage negotiators. I had no idea what they did. Like, I was clueless. But it looked easy. Didn't involve your knee bending too much. Yeah, you know, they talk to bad guys. I talk all the time. I should be able to do that. I originally applied for the negotiation team in New York, got rejected.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And the key to me, both getting in the bureau and on the negotiation team, was asking the right person and then doing what they said. So I asked the woman who was in charge of the negotiation team in New York after she flat out made it clear to me, I was eminently unqualified. I didn't have other than wanting to do it, nothing. And I said, well, what is it that I could do?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
She said, volunteer on a suicide hotline, which I did, which shocked her, which shocked me. She said, you know, I tell everybody to do that. Nobody does. And so kind of the issue is do you take initiative and do you take instruction? That is kind of, it sounds really simple. But most people won't take initiative because they're like, ah, you know, what good is this going to do me?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I'm not going to do any extra.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah, and then who did you ask also? Yeah. Because I've taken advice from the wrong people in the past. You know, there's a phrase, never take advice from somebody you wouldn't trade places with or hasn't been where you're going. Yeah. Now, if you really think about that, Who does that quickly disqualify? Probably people that you trust and people that you love. Yeah. Because your mom loves you.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
You trust your mom. But if she hasn't done what you're asking about, she's not going to be able to give you good advice. Your brother-in-law, your father, you know, whatever your profession is. If they haven't done what you're asking about, the fact that you love them and trust them is inadequate. And that's the hard thing about advice, sorting out who you should really listen to.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And I'm in a lift a couple years ago, this guy with his great booming voice is my lift driver. And he says, yeah, my mom says I should get a job doing voiceovers as a voice actor. Now, having learned negotiation is a perishable skill. It's a human performance event. Being good at it is as difficult as being good at any professional sport.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
If you don't dedicate it to it, if you don't dig into it, you're not going to be any good. You need reps, too. You need reps, but it looks easy. It's like being a radio DJ. It looks easy. People think they could do that. And you can't unless you study it. So this guy says, yeah, my mom says I should do voiceover. And I go, has your mother ever been in the industry? And he says, no.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And I said, all right, so it's going to sound harsh. Your mother loves you. She doesn't know what she's talking about. If you want to do it, go find somebody who's doing it successfully. And ask them what it takes. Ask them what to do. Now, that doesn't mean your mother doesn't love you, but who do you listen to is one of the harder things until you think about would you trade places with them?
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Have they been where you're going? Don't take directions from somebody who hasn't been where you're going. Amy, who told me about volunteering on Suicide Hotline, I would trade places with her. I ultimately became the head of the team. So she was where I wanted to be and as it turned out, she had volunteered on a suicide holiday and we ended up at the same one.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
She was so impressed, she told me a couple years later that she told a thousand people to do that. Two, there were two of us. And also if you think about, think about your competitive edge. If you listen to the right person and you just do what they say, You're not going to realize what an edge that's going to give you. Nobody realizes that. You realize you're two in a thousand. That's an edge.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
If you know who to listen to, everybody else is lazy. Nobody else works hard. They're looking for advice that conforms with what they're already doing or if they don't feel like doing it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
They're looking for validation, and they're kind of looking for, it's not my fault that I didn't succeed. So if I'm doing what I'm supposed to do and I'm not succeeding, then I'm a victim.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
I think, well, I don't know that... The percentages have changed. Now I know that our attention to it is being very much more focused in a very different way. So human nature, most people say human nature hasn't changed in 10,000 years. So what does that mean? That means, I don't know that there's an epidemic of it, but our attention is brought to it more than at any other time.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Right. Yeah.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah. Yeah. It definitely, it's a contest who can be the greatest victim these days.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
And then what everybody misses is there's no path to success designed around being a victim. None.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Yeah, amen. Agree completely. No excuses.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Thanks for having me on, man. I appreciate it.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Everybody did.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
Good to see you.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
It's weird. Um, The book first came out, co-writer of the book, Tal Raz.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
No, it was my idea. I actually held off on it for a number of years, wanted to make sure I had enough material. My son Brandon was very involved. And then there's cliche advice, but it's 1,000% true. If you want your book to succeed, go to the bookstore, find a book that you want to write. Hire that guy.
Escaping the Drift with John Gafford
From Iowa Roots to International Negotiator: Chris Voss on Success, Perseverance, and Building Trust
So the only business book that I ever read that I was really entertained by and was an easy read, not light, but easy. Never Eat Alone, Keith Ferrazzi's book on networking. And so Tal Raz was his co-writer. And I actually fired four writers before I got to Tal. And Tal made all the difference in the world. And in so many ways that I didn't realize at the time, Tal is a brilliant researcher.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I think that's a talent. And it seems like that's taken years to develop. Cause you, the difference is, is I don't think you're doing it to negotiate or be persuasive or influential. I think you genuinely enjoy doing it.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And you could tell you do your expressions and just, I don't know if it's a game for you, but it just seems like you genuinely, like it's so hard to teach that unless people actually enjoy doing it.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
All right, guys, welcome back to the Home Service Experts. Today, I got a very special guest, the number one coach of negotiation in the world, Chris Voss. How are you today? Fantastic, Tommy. Thanks for having me in. I'm excited, man. You wrote the bestseller, Never Split the Difference. You've been on some of my buddies' podcasts, obviously, Waste No Day, Brian Burden. Yep.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Yeah, 100%. You know, this is a really interesting topic of this idea of recruiting or hiring. I have this conversation all the time. They say, what's going to grow the company the fastest? I said the ability to find A players and culture A players and the idea of recruiting.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And I've dealt with A players that have great numbers, great conversion rates, great average tickets, but they're not all A's. And sometimes A players become very difficult, depending on how you define an A player. It's not just a top performer. It's someone that buys in, someone that bleeds the company. You know, they want to grow in the company. They want to be involved.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Like, I love millennials. I love Gen X. Like, people say there's no good workers anymore. How do you find them? This generation doesn't want to work. Well, not the way that you want them to work. It used to be, you know, my parents used to just go to work 60 hours a week if they had to. They didn't like it. They didn't enjoy it. They didn't understand why they were working.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
What do you think the best conversations? Let's just go into recruiting in general, because this is like the lifeblood of a company is who's on your team. Right. This is any sports team, any type of team.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Part of the Black Swan Group. Why don't you just tell us, you know, most people know who you are. They've heard of your book. They've read your book. But tell us a little bit about Your history, what you're doing today, and where you're going.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
It says aspire to be number one right here. What's the point of playing if you don't plan on winning?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Or by, I would argue, by their belief system.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Yeah, I feel like, so we're in 43 markets. And a lot of times what I hear is this market's not like that market. You don't understand Milwaukee. A lot of alleyways. A lot of the homes aren't connected to the garage. No one cares about their garage. The dispatcher doesn't like me. It's not possible here. The lower credit score is worse areas.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
So I'll take, you know, I've got several dozen really great A players, best of the best. And I'm like, listen, do me a favor. Can you go out there for a week? And the managers will call me. They're like, no preferential treatment. I'm like, you're the dispatcher this week. Give him or her whatever jobs you want. And every single time, this has never failed me.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
They look at it as a personal challenge to go out there because I tell them, I'm like, take off the training wheels, rip their head off, they're betting against you. There's never been once that they didn't completely... I don't care where I send these people. They're going to murder it. They don't care what city, what state. And it changes the belief system quite a bit.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And what I found is when I have somebody move there and they do it every day, every week, every month, every quarter, it's like it is possible. They just need to know it's possible. They think... We get inside of our own heads sometimes and we say, yeah... You know, they don't understand this and this, but that's a limiting belief system.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Instead of saying, I can, and I will, and I'm going to do this, and I'm not going to give up, and I'm going to go for no. This idea is like, I would hate to be average and just not think I deserve more. And that's the biggest fear when you were just in my training center. I said, guys, I hope you realize you're worth more than you ever thought possible. I hope you don't have imposter syndrome.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I hope you'd love yourself enough because this is an amazing opportunity. It took one out of 100 interviews for you even to be here and you're already here. When you leave here, you're going to be on SEAL Team 6. You're an official badass if you treat it like it or you'll fade out. We groom winners here or they fade out.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
It's a theory of the clawfish. And I tell these guys, I'm like, you got that friend, they're pulling you back in. Hey dude, what happened to my buddy that used to drink a case of beer with me? Yeah. What happened to the guy that used to go to the strip club? And I go, guys, by the way, you're friends and you didn't pick each other. So you turned 18.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
You were born next to them, but at the house next door. You have a choice. And I'm not going to say never talk to your buddies again. But I'm going to say this. When I find myself hanging out with successful people, I jump from mountain to mountain to mountain. I'm at this mountain. I go back to base camp.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I hang out with a new crew that says, here's how to get to the top of the mountain the fastest. And they're all circles. And if you don't get inspired by your circle, it's a cage. Yeah, well said. And it is a cage. And most people are living in this cage. And I find myself in cages. Very periodically, like pretty often. And I got to move, shift the circle.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And it's not easy because look, we've got long-term relationships, but the minute somebody starts talking negative, I've used so many times in my past negativity to push me to do stuff. And it was coming from a place of darkness of you say, I can't do that. Watch this. It's got to turn to love at some point. And the self-love. Yes. But I don't mind what inspires you. Whatever gets you going.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
If your wife told you you're always going to be a fat ass and it gets you in shape, you're going to have to turn around at some point and use that inspiration and say, I deserve this. I feel better.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I think people have a hard time with that, but they usually use something like mom said, I would never be anybody. Look at this. And sometimes that motivation goes further than just, I want to be better in life. Do you ever think that sometimes negative people, you know, there's somebody saying something like, yeah, you wish. You'll never, you'll never do that.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
You know, I was reading an article by Tom Brady, and he said, when I started playing professional football, or it was college football, he goes, I was by far the slowest guy. Slow, slow, slow. Like, I was literally last place as speed. And he goes, my mom... My mom was there watching me from the silence and said, you were like flying. You were just so fast. And he goes, mom, I'm the slowest.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
No, no, no, you don't understand. You were faster than everybody. And she's just, I do think it's a lot of how your parents set you up in your belief systems or whoever raised you. If you could do whatever you want and just, my mom always told me, I know for a fact, and I always say this, that if something happened bad, and this would never happen, but if I went to prison,
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
My mom would move anywhere on this planet to be right next to there to come visit me. And she would love me. I really feel like it's unconditional. And I feel like if I told my mom she's a piece, you know, and I cussed her out and I fist fought her, she would come back for more. I mean, to a certain extent, you could only take so much abuse. But that's just the woman she is.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
She's like unconditional love. And when you feel that, and a lot of people don't have that. And I was very fortunate. My mom and dad got a divorce, whatever. But she always made me feel like I was number one. And that's why I'm like, I set these impossible goals, but I always say, if you shoot for the stars, you land on the moon, you're doing okay.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And I put a lot of pressure on myself, but I never get burned out or like too stressed out. I'm not like, oh, I'm never going to make it. I'm never going to be, but I talk to myself all the time. I always got a calculator. I got the app open on my phone, the calculator app. I'm reversing engineering my goals. People are like, dude, there's no way you could do that. And I'm like, yeah, I could.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I want to hit a billion dollars of revenue. I need 2000 texts doing 500,000. And I go to do that over the next four years. Here's who I would need to hire each month. And then it progresses up and they're like, wait, you're serious, aren't you? I'm like, yeah, it's a mathematical equation. It's a formula. It works every time. Do the math. I think a lot of people, I don't understand.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I think it's a lot about people don't know how to focus. They say, I got ADHD. They just, they literally, they don't know what to do next. They don't have manual or SOPs or systems. And they don't have a plan. And they're just like, I just want to do good. Like, you just want to do what is good. What does that even mean? I'm interested by watching people, but I've started studying success.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And that's been the majority of it? You're out of Vegas right now. You get back to California, but you travel a lot. What's the future look like?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And I think that's the big difference. When you interview people, what kind of questions are you asking to see if they're ambitious, competitive, ethical, and coachable?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Dave Ramsey talks about, and I love this, I would try this out one time, is if you really like somebody, say, look, do you have anybody that, you know, significant other? Most people I've married, they've got a girlfriend. Is you can learn a lot more about somebody when you go to dinner and watch the way they treat their significant other. Because if they're having tension at home,
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And some people are. Some people are just in a toxic relationship. And that's okay. It doesn't mean they're toxic. But it means you've got to overcome these every day you come to work. And so if you watch this, I'll call it mutual admiration and respect for one another. And you could read right through the way, especially if it's a couple.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I mean, you could see that they have a great life together. And the people that have a great life together tend to perform better because you come to work happy. You had a great day. Mutual respect at home. You've heard happy life, happy life. Then the other thing is I do a 30-day trial. This is a test. You got to come to work sober, not be on your cell phone, not be chain smoking.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
You got to ask great questions, be curious, smile more. And I tell them up front what we're looking for. You got to you got to want to win, too. And this is I tell everybody in the company, this is their test. If they made it to me in Phoenix and I'm not impressed, then you fail. And I'd rather hire slow and quality over quantity.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Yeah, it's interesting. And I've seen some crazy things. And I'll tell you, it's not easy to be... I always say it's hard to be in a relationship, but it's hard to be single. You know, we were just in the training center. One of the most favorite things you talk about is... Why saying no is a fundamental weapon. You talk about, are you against this? Or would you have a problem with it?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
A lot of times we were always taught to nod our head and say, would you agree? And you want to make sure this is safe, right? But it has become that everybody was trained in that way. And now we put our guard up. And you talked to me a little bit. I think that's probably one of the most favorite things is you said you had a nurse or no, you said you had a student go from,
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
12% conversion is 60% conversion, but just changing it from yes to no questions.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I love that. You know, I was it's so top of mind right now because we've got two major vendors and we're with private equity. And the main guy at the private equity company goes, why don't I jump on these calls? Just tell them my thoughts. And he said, look, guys, I just want to get one thing straight. We're not here to see you race to the bottom. Our vendors got to do very good. We know that.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I'm trying to think how I want to use this. Because we always, my big thing is if you're not giving options, you're giving ultimates. Good point. You're only able to say yes or no. Right. So I would say, Chris or Mr. Voss, I say, look, we're going to go over six options. You can pick one you like. How does that sound? And that's so much easier. We can do anything you want. Just pick one you like.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
But would you be against me giving you some options and then you can pick one you like? I guess we could. That's what I want to work on with our business here. So you talk about a few things, voice mirroring and the strategic use of fair. I love the word fair. Does that sound fair? I love the idea of, you know, I just want to make sure you're getting a fair handshake. What is the best way?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
So I understand mirroring is when I'm repeating the order back to you. I'm a server. I understand voice inflections. Talk to me about the right use of fare.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
You need to deliver on time. We need to make sure we're doing the right stuff for you. But we want a three-year approach. You can put your escalators in there when you need to raise your price, but we need to see. And he said, this is just him. He goes, each of you guys will get 30% of our business. Who gets the other 40%? That's what's up for grabs. And he had a separate meeting with each of them.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Oh, I like this stuff, man. I told you I was just recently with Robert Cialdini and he talks a lot about just the switch of words. Very, very subtle. And they did this experiment and I love this one. At a restaurant, they brought the Czech presenter and they said, thank you for your business tonight. The next one, they put one mint in. The tip didn't change. The next one, they put two mints in.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
The tip went up 2%. The next one, the server walked away after giving the check presenter a walk back and said, for you two gentlemen, each of you deserve a mint for coming in tonight. And the tip doubled. And what I love about what these guys do at colleges and universities is they'll do like 1,000.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
They'll do like a whole case study around it and they'll have like a double blind study and all these things. And it's just these little subtleties, these little things that just change the whole dynamic of the conversation. Even with this idea of just reversing instead of a yes question, no question. And you add it all together and you practice it enough.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I was with Larry Fitzgerald and he said, for every ball I've caught during a game as a wide receiver, I've caught over 100 in practice. Right. And I just love the idea. So you were telling the guys next door, you said, first, you got to see yourself doing it like Tiger Woods. I think you said Michael Jordan or LeBron James. Right. You got to see yourself doing it. Then you got to go like use it.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And then you got to practice it. And then you got to put it into deployment. Yeah. That's tough for people because most of the time, most of us in the home service industry, we don't build a culture of practice where we're coming in every day. And I hate to use this word because I don't like it, but it is role play. How do you feel about that role play?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And he was very nice, but he treated both of them a little bit differently. And he told me the mentality after that. And he's very good at what he does. He was in. really kind of a shrewd negotiator, but I said, listen, I don't feel right racing these guys to the bottom, but it's not only about price for me. It's about service. It's about getting us in and out of the distribution center.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Hmm. I like that. I kind of want to do a field day once a week with the guys and go to Costco or go. Go practice. Throw a mic on them like a hit. Just have them listen to themselves. Practice in the real world because so often we talk about these. How do you use this at home? How do you make this part of your DNA? Not just learn the circumstantial and this happens, then this.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
But how do you use this where it's just a skill that you could use forever? And it's like, look, I always tell the guys, do me a favor. Smile right now. just stand there and smile with me. I'm like, the first time I looked in the mirror and started talking, it was really tough. And then I started practicing and practicing in front of a mirror and I got way more comfortable with it.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
It's just moving cheek muscles. You're not used to moving. Yeah. But you know, some of us feel like we look like idiots when we're smiling and talking, but it's so nice when you're talking to somebody, like I always tell the story, I go, can you imagine guys before you were married or when you were single, And you just saw the most gorgeous girl at a bar.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
There's a lot of other things, order accuracy, because those create nightmares for us. But this was like just today before we jumped on here, this is what's going on. And he said, you guys, I'm not going to tell you what the other guys are doing. You got to come back with your best and final. And we'll decide where that other 40% goes.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
She's standing by the jukebox and she's gorgeous. She's dressed to kill and she's just angry. Would you walk up to her? Would you do it? Like if she didn't smile, she didn't make eye contact. She didn't want anything to do with anybody. That just kind of comes off as conceited or unattractive. So, like, what do you think you are perceived at when you just don't smile at all? Right.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
You look like you hate your life. You look like you don't enjoy the company or what you do. And I always tell the guys, when you walk in that garage, you're the doctor. And by the way, when I go to the doctor, what do they do? They ask me, how much have you been drinking? Are you smoking? They give me some tests. They say, what's your food like? Are you exercising? They run.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
They look at my eyeballs, my ears, my nose, you know, everywhere. Check my heartbeat. And then they say, they write a prescription. You know what they do? They say, what's closer to you, CVS or Walgreens? They give me the prescription. I go, I've never asked the doctor that looks me in the eyes and asked me all these questions and diagnosed me that I need to get a second opinion.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Because they're the authority. They know what's going on. They never talk or hesitate or say, hmm, I'm not really sure. I want to make some recommendations, but we don't really know. I don't get that from the doctor. So we're the doctor. They called us out to be the doctor. And that confidence level, I was with my buddy, this buddy, I haven't been with him, like got out with him in a while.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
He lives on the East Coast. But I go, this guy picks up the most hottest chick everywhere we go. And he always walks away and comes back and introduces me to whatever girl. But he just met that night. And one night I'm like, I'm going to go with this asshole, find out what he's doing. So he walks up to these girls and he looks them in the eyes, relentless. And he's talking to them.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
But what I watch is they weren't no eye contact, not digging it. He literally looked at me. He goes, went over the next group of girls. He did not care. He did not care. When I go to Mexico and the little kid's asking to sell blankets, if I say no thanks, he's not insulted. He doesn't ruin his life and call his parents up and say, didn't get a sale.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Why is it that us as Americans, sometimes we just feel like this fear of rejection. Right. I don't know what it is, but so many people are afraid of no, they're afraid to get rejected.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And I thought that was pretty interesting because we're talking about $50 million. Yeah. So these guys know we're going to spend a lot of money with them. So he's like, we're not going to go back and forth again. Best and final. We'll decide where that other 40% goes. What are your thoughts on that? I'm just curious. It's kind of a real life scenario.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Yeah. Let's ask a couple of final questions. I just want to hear from your perspective. What was one of the real life scenarios? This always gets, I love watching like FBI. This is, that's my jam of like hostage negotiations. Like this is the coolest thing. What was one of the stories that maybe you haven't shared in a long time? that you were against some really difficult odds?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I'm sure you got your go-tos, but what was one that you don't bring up very often that you were able to defuse the situation, get a good outcome, but it was, what's the longest you've ever gone?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Yeah, I can imagine. I got a couple of closing questions. One other quick one. I got to get this in. Everybody's going crazy right now about cybersecurity. I know some massive, massive, massive, multi, multi, multi-billion coming on a trillion dollar get hacked. Sometimes it goes so deep. It goes into their complete operating system. They can completely shut you down.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
They can shut down the planes. They can shut down your bank. They can shut down the railroads. That's a different type of negotiation. It's kind of like you're a hostage to them because you can't run the business without it. I mean, the government's been... Those are the same dynamics as an overseas kidnapping.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And if you pay, they still got something in there that they could just... I've heard of people paying and then one month later they ask for another... Because they paid too easy. They didn't negotiate the agreement up front. So obviously they shut you down every minute counts. You're out of capacity. They proven they could shut you down. You're shut down. How do you move quickly on that?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
What's the right way to be thinking about if your whole business is inoperable?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I know that cybersecurity, interesting fact, covers up to 30 million. So if I were on the opposite end of being the bad guy, I would probably say 30 million would be the number I'm going for, knowing it's insured.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Is the FBI pretty good in CIA? I guess if it's international, I guess FBI works internationally. Are they pretty good about recovering? Because it's gotten pretty crazy with Bitcoin and these different things to track this stuff. I've heard of a lot of stuff that it's almost impossible to track.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I love this stuff. I could do this all day. When people want to get a hold of you, Chris, what's the best way to do that?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Okay, so we got that. We'll have that in the show notes. We could get your – so Tuesday, what else is available on there? More training you could sign up for?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And any books out there, something you recently read, obviously there's, you know, there's the go-tos, but is there anything like kind of uncommon that you read recently that you'd say, this is amazing reading?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Oh, I love this stuff. Last final question is, we talked about a lot of stuff, and I'm such a big fan of yours. Like, we're going to implement a lot of these things. We talked about a lot. Is there anything we didn't talk about? Any final thoughts? I'll give you the stage to finish this up.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Love it. Well, thank you, Chris. It was a pleasure. Tommy, this was amazing. Thank you for being here. And to all the listeners, pick up Never Split the Difference. Make sure you subscribe to Chris's newsletter. And hopefully you'll be there drinking bourbon in Louisville. Thanks, guys. Hey there, thanks for tuning into the podcast today.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Before I let you go, I want to let everybody know that Elevate is out and ready to buy. I can share with you how I attracted a winning team of over 700 employees in over 20 states. The insights in this book are powerful and can be applied to any business or organization. It's a real game changer for anyone looking to build and develop a high-performing team like over here at A1 Garage Door Service.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
So if you want to learn the secrets that helped me transfer my team from stealing the toilet paper to a group of 700 plus employees rowing in the same direction, head over to elevateandwin.com forward slash podcast and grab a copy of the book. Thanks again for listening and we'll catch up with you next time on the podcast.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I tried to lay it all on the table and I said, guys, look, These guys could call the trump card on anything. They could put whatever they need to. We work with them. They're the ultimate decision makers. We run the business.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
But ultimately, these guys got to understand what we're doing and putting the next year in front of us is not good enough because this is a three-year plan. And he said, look, guys, I don't care what you do. Do what makes sense for your business. And if you just can't give us any concessions, just say it. It's okay. I'm fine with that. But ultimately, we got to do what's right for this business.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And it was just crazy. He's very good at what he does.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Yeah. No, I love that approach. It's kind of saying, listen, we need you to do great. You know, I want my partners to do really, really amazing things. But at the same time, we're gonna lay everything out here of what we need. And if something doesn't make sense, and he, I mean, these were hour long conversations.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I was looking, I've read the book twice and I just looked at some of the summaries I wrote down. So the psychological awareness, of understanding the people's predispositions over time. One of the things I've watched you a lot, and I've kind of studied a lot of your videos and everything you put out, is you really take your time to answer. You slow down and you're actively listening.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Before we get started, I wanted to share two important things with you. First, I want you to implement what you learned today. To do that, you'll have to take a lot of notes, but I also want you to fully concentrate on the interview. So I asked the team to take notes for you. Just text NOTES to 888-526-1299. That's 888-526-1299.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
You're like really trying to comprehend the conversation and trying to understand where they're coming from. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I've noticed those pattern interrupts, those patterns. waiting to comprehend what they said, it actually helps. It shows that you're, it's actually respectful to the other person because if you're talking to me and you ask, and I'm just, I'm waiting to say something and people know that, or when I say, no, really, that's pretty interesting. Or you're talking to me. Oh, uh-huh.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
it's just when you could do that, like if you were on a first date, and I always tell people this, if you're on a first date, are you smiling more? Are you genuinely interested? Are you asking more questions? Yes. Well, if you treat this like a first date when you need a client, especially for our industry, because it's more, it's not as relational. It's just the one time we fix your garage.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
I want to create a relationship and get you on a service agreement. But, you know, when we're talking, I want to show, I want to show up smiling and ask, how's your day going? I offer coffee on the way. I'm in a happy mood. I'm smiling. And I don't even talk about the garage for the first hour. I want to get to know you more. I want to make sure we're giving you all the options.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
Black, white, Cuban, or Asian, old, young, gay street. I don't care. I want to treat you the same no matter what until I learn more about you. Your landscaping might be a mess. You might live in a really poor neighborhood. That doesn't matter to me because I know you own a home. More than likely, I went to the brokest neighborhoods on the planet and people paid me 10 grand.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
They went in their bedroom and got cash. It's crazy. So a lot of people judge a book by its cover. What have you learned in negotiations when that happens?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
They're judging me a book by its cover or? People go into rich people's house. We had a person come over this week. It's a nice house. It's a big house. It's a beautiful house. Christmas arrangements. But he goes, guess how much this lady wanted to charge? I go, well, what did you want?
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
She's like, you know, the Christmas trees, a couple of guys standing at the front door, you know, the drummer, whatever, the stairway. And I go, I don't know, 10 grand. She goes, a hundred thousand dollars. And I'm like, they must have looked at us. The throw pillows were $250 each that I could have got for two bucks. I'm going, but they judged a book by its cover in the opposite way.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
And you'll receive a link to download the notes from today's episode. Also, if you haven't got your copy of my newest book, Elevate, please go check it out. I'll share with you how I attracted and developed a winning team that helped me build a $200 million company in 22 states. Just go to elevateandwin.com forward slash podcast to get your copy. Now let's go back into the interview.
The Home Service Expert Podcast
Mastering the Art of Negotiation with Chris Voss
This is why wealthy people are guarded because they're like, they see my cars, they see this house. The wealthiest people are the smartest. They'll still spend money, but they're very good because they kept the money. But it goes both ways. Rich, poor, or in the middle.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Yeah, it's on Amazon.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Principally, we tried to make it self-defining. So think of yourself as an accountant who's going to do an audit. Now do an audit slash assessment slash inventory of the negative thoughts the other side might be harboring against you, their accusations. And be liberal. Think a lot. You know, once you start thinking about this, a lot of stuff will occur to you.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Yeah. And then what you do is you lay it out up front. Now, what scares most people about this... is even if they believe that labeling, identifying a negative diffuses it, and it does, there's actually a brain science that backs it up. Not denying it, you say something like, it sounds like I'm going to sound disrespectful instead of I don't want to sound disrespectful.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
I think our thoughts overlap in our approach to life collaborative. I love your book. And so, yeah, it's a pleasure talking with you. Thanks, man.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
I don't want to sound disrespectful is the wrong way. That's a denial. I'm going to sound disrespectful is the correct way. It's a prediction. It's an observation. So if it's there, it deactivates it. Now, what scares everybody is that you can plant the negative. You can plant the negative emotion. You can't plant emotions in people's heads. You can't plant negatives. You can't plant positive.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
You can only work with what's there. So the accusations audit is probably one of the single most effective, most used strategies that we coach people on to break open negotiations, to break down barriers, to solve problems in an accelerated fashion.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
You know, I'm glad you asked that because my staff is doing this to me all the time. And why do they do it to me all the time? Because it works at home. Like they'll walk into my office and they'll go, is now a bad time to talk? No, you're going to hate me for this. You know, my girlfriend, I got to take my girlfriend to the grocery store. Like, I don't know what it is.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Like, they are throwing this one word out, you know, and when you're doing the accusations audit, I mean, go for the strong word. You know, don't pull your punches, which is why they say, you know, you're going to hate me for this. Like, no, I'm not going to. You know, my first reaction is like, you know, what are you going to do? Are you going to set my house on fire?
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Are you going to dump your garbage inside my truck? Like, I imagined something horrible. And they'll ask me something that is less than what I was worried about. And, you know, they're preempting it. And so you're going to hate me for this. Start that on your ass, on the people in your life. Now, why is everybody on my staff doing this to me instantly? Not because they're trying to show off.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
They got an inkling of this and they actually started using it at home. And they changed all their conversations at home. And so they're like, hey, this works. And if it works at home, it's going to work, you know, out on the street on a regular basis. So, yeah, start trying it. You've got to ask if it's going to make somebody uncomfortable.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And don't say, I don't want this to make you uncomfortable, which is, again, the denial. Say, you know, you're going to hate me for this. And then see what happens. Do it playfully. See what happens on small stake stuff. You know, get some data. Yeah.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Yeah, I think you're definitely on the right track. I think it's probably two or three things. And very similar to the contrarian correction as well. I mean, it's a correcting, not, you know, I don't feel that way. That's both contrarian and correcting. And people love to correct. I mean, you know, people love to correct. We do, yes.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
You know, there's a famous Judge Judy thing. You know, this guy, this girl's accused of this guy stealing her purse. And, you know, she's sitting there and she outlines all the stuff that was in her purse. And then, of course, she throws in there like $40 in cash. And the guy immediately says, there was no cash in that purse.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And the judge starts to laugh and said, folks, the only way you know that is you stole it.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Yeah, that is one of the magic wand phrases. And we've, for whatever reason, just for the fun of it, you know, we label a number of go-to phrases, magic wand phrases, because it just changes so much instantly. It's like waving a magic wand. So what is behind what somebody said is always more important than what they said.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
It's always more important. You know, some people call it the question behind the question, the thought behind it. Like, what makes them say that? It's so much more important. You need to know what their thought process is. And your guess at best is going to be accurate about 30% of the time, which is not a bad accuracy, you know. It's not better than half, but it's not a horrible percentage.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
But that means about two-thirds of the time your guess is going to be wrong. So you need to pull out why they said that. And, you know, it sounds like you have a reason for saying that. It seems like you have a reason for saying that. Whatever sort of take you want on that, you want to approach them in a way. And that's different than a question. Because if I say, what makes you say that?
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
The word what causes you to stop and think. You're going to go into in-depth thinking, which means you may not have the energy to answer, number one, because in-depth thinking is tiring. Number two, you're going to think about it before you answer me. And I really want an unvarnished answer. I want it coming right out of your mouth without sucking a lot of energy out of you.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And I know that if I say it, it seems like I have a reason for saying that. you are more likely to give it to me straight right off the bat. It doesn't feel judgmental on your part. It feels very encouraging. It feels open and collaborative. It opens all these doors to sharing information that is not exhausting and actually develops rapport.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
So it's a great way to find out what made them say what they just said.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Yeah, it's a great circumstance, too, because in that deposition, probably by definition, you're a threat. And so they're going to be reluctant. And you want them to pull that information where they don't see you as a threat. And also, if it's a deposition, it's probably going to go on for hours.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Yeah, well, you know, it's sorting out which voice in your head you're going to listen to also. And most of the time, the voices in your head are your amygdala, your fear centers. They're kicking into gear on you, and they're just not your friend. They're just not. You know, a friend of mine, Sean Stevenson, was a great guy, died tragically five-ish years ago.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
It doesn't really help you to exhaust them because the more tired they get, the less information they're going to be able to supply. Right.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
It would really be, first of all, They may be what I refer to as a seven percenter, which is a person I don't want to deal with anyway. Yeah. I learned a long time ago, do I have to deal with this person? My former boss, Gary Nessner, used to say our approach to negotiation was best chance of success, which means by definition, it's not a guaranteed chance of success.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
So I'm going to gauge the other person. How passive aggressive are they? Do I have to deal with them? do I want to be handcuffed to this person for the foreseeable future, for forever? A friend of mine, Joel Polish, refers to these people as halfs, hard, annoying, lame, and frustrating. And Joey says, just don't deal with halfs, cut them out of your life. And so if somebody's passive aggressive,
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
My first question to myself is, do I want to be handcuffed to this person over a long term period of time? And if the answer is no, then I'm out. The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. If you're passive aggressive now, for me personally, there's a really good chance that you're going to get fired. I'm going to continue the relationship. Yeah.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Now, what happens if I feel like I have to? What if I'm handcuffed to them? What if I've taken myself hostage? Then I'm probably going to start labeling. And then it sounds to me like you don't want to give me an answer. Because passive aggressive, what they do is they throw stuff back on you.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
What do you want me to do is one of their favorite questions after you've just told them what you want them to do. Right. Because they know how exhausting that is. They'll be like, you know, look, I need you to go down. I need you to do this. This is a problem. This is a problem. We need to fix this. And they'll be like, well, what do you want me to do?
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Like they're deaf because you just told them. But it's a great strategy for exhausting you and wearing you out, which is what a passive-aggressive person is often going to do. So I might label them. It sounds to me like What I just said was confusing.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
The basic label is a verbal observation which starts with it seems like, and then you make your observation it sounds like, it looks like, sometimes it even feels like. And if somebody's passive-aggressive, they're dragging their feet, you can say, it feels like you're dragging your feet. It's just making an observation based on an emotion or a dynamic that you see. It's a verbal observation.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And if you see it, even if you sense it, It's now fair game to observe it verbally, slap a label on it. Identify what you're seeing and say it out loud. And depending upon how you're wired or how it's presented, that's why the choices are basically like it looks like, sounds like, it seems like, it feels like. It's a very collaborative thing to do. It's you're open to correction.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Somebody can say, well, you know, don't tell me what I am. My answer is going to be like, I didn't say you were. I said that's the way it looked or that's the way it sounds. So it's not accusatory, believe it or not.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And I just started to get to know Sean and collaborate with him. And I knew right away that we were on the same sheet of music because he just flat out said to us, like, our biggest enemies are amygdala. A fierce center in our brain. It just...
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
It's convoluted.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
People connect to you a lot easier. And the connection tends to stick. If you're communicating with a high volume of words, with a lot of energy, with a lot of emotion, it has a really fast half-life. It goes away really quickly. And you want to communicate in a way with people that they kind of resonate with. It resonates with their bones. They don't feel pushed.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
was necessary to keep us alive when we were actually being chased by saber-toothed tigers and being, you know, chased down outside the cave away from the campfire by all sorts of creatures that wanted to eat us on a regular basis. But just not our friend these days. And the voice in your head can just make you do stupid things and make you paranoid and overreact and it...
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
The energy is not necessary to continue the relationship. Yeah. Yeah, I learned it on a suicide hotline, you know, then continued to learn it as a hostage negotiator. Ran across a hypnotherapist one time that said that's exactly how we get people to relax.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Uh, and so then ideally the perfect combination, if you can, if you can downward inflect, if you could slow down and you don't have to have a deep voice, like, uh, women can downward inflect by simply dropping their chin downward and inflection, uh, And then the occasional smile, like it just gives people a warm feeling. It's something they're drawn to that they resonate with.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And you put the two of those together, it tends to really, it really lasts. It sticks. People like it and they feel comfortable with it.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Yeah, drawn to you, less rushed, less cornered. They feel voluntary. They feel collaborative. It just makes it easier. Yeah, they're very drawn to you with it.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Yeah. Consistently, you're going to find your meaningful conversations are going to be fewer and fewer. They're going to be farther and farther apart. You know, the ones that you win will obscure how much you lose. I think of it as the Las Vegas slot machine effect. Like, people get addicted to the slots. What are the numbers? How often do you win on a slot machine?
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
I've read that the arithmetic, the algorithm is if they let you win one in every 84 polls, you're going to keep dumping money into the slot machines.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
because the win is so celebratory like if you got something to prove and you got somebody over a barrel and you force them into submission it's like the slot machine going off the bells and the whistles are ringing the lights are flashing you're getting this huge hit of dopamine anticipation it feels so good and you don't realize that you lose 83 out of 84 times and they're slowly draining your bank account
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
So if you got something to prove, you're just slowly driving people away from you. And suddenly, you can't remember the last time you had a breakthrough. Or nobody in your industry talks to you. Or people pay you the annoyance tax just so you go away. And you got all these small wins, but they don't accumulate. They don't add to much. You're not doing as well as the other people that somehow...
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And what voice should you listen to? Like the intuition, if you can sort your fear centers from your intuition. And I even sometimes say to myself, like, what is my gut telling me? Because I get problems over covering my amygdala too.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
They get along with people. They're not as argumentative, but they get a bigger house than I do. They get a better car. They're making more money. How did that happen?
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
I love talking with you.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
You know, if you're tired, it's been a long day, you didn't get a good night's sleep the night before, like your amygdala just spoiling for that opportunity to take over the controls. And if you can listen to your gut instead, your gut's really accurate. It's a real help. It's just sorting the two out.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Yeah, you know, we didn't even realize how significant that was when we first wrote the book. You know, the book's collaboration between me and my son, Brandon, Brandon Voss, uncredited co-author, Tal Raz. And Todd's doing his best there and did a phenomenal job capturing our thoughts and putting in our voice.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
But like when somebody says no, something happens to them, the person who utters the word no versus the person who hears it. The person who says no feels safe and protected. And so that's how that becomes the beginning of the conversation, because having feel like they protected themselves and they feel safe. They're more open to dialogue. They're more open to listening.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
You're not a threat or the issue isn't a threat. There's this Pavlovian response to uttering the word no that opens people up. And that's why in so many cases, if you're willing to give it the space, no will start the conversation.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
That's an interesting question. I mean... The parental dilemma is your kids don't do what you tell them to do. They do what they see you do. And your kids saw you say no. You know, your kids see you say no to them all the time. And that's how you assert your autonomy and control of the situation. So they want to be like you. They're seeing you say no. And they're like, oh, okay.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Saying no is a way to assert my autonomy, to protect myself, to gain control of my environment. It makes me feel good to say it. And that's what, that's what's happening.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Yeah, and that is the craziest thing. So it's kind of like a two-step explanation, maybe three-step. Everybody's been bamboozled with yes. The yes momentum, momentum selling, ask them three questions, three different questions, The answer to each question is a micro-agreement or a tie-down. And would you like to make more money? Would you like to live in a bigger house?
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
You know, they seemingly, and there may be at a point in time where this worked. And I think everybody has been hustled by this at some point in time in their life before you realize that you were being led down a path. And you got led down the path so many times that your gut instinct, oh, last time somebody tried to get me to say yes, you know, they ended up trapping me.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And so then you have a Pavlovian response. You know, Pavlov's dog, the bell rings, they feed. Then every time the bell rings, the dog salivates. Well, every time somebody tries to get you to say yes, they led you down a path. There was a trap. There was a bear trap there. All right, so the minute somebody's trying to get me to say yes, there's a trap. So there's a psychological Pavlovian response.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And as stupid as that, and true as it sounds, it seems stupid that the opposite would be true, that people feel safe when they say no. And they'll open up. But in point of fact, they do. We were teaching this. We're doing a course for a company that does business with hospitals. probably about five years ago.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And this woman in the head of their sales is trying to get the head nurse of this particular hospital to accept a system, have been a yes-oriented approach. And she says, look, this woman is in no mode. She says no to everything I say. So I'm like, all right, flip your questions. She's like, no, that's not going to work. That's stupid.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
I mean, if I just reword it and she says, no, it's going to change things. And so she got up out of the room, left the training, went to the hallway, sent the head nurse a text. Are you against implementing this program? The head nurse immediately texted back, no, just let me know what we have to do to move forward. And she comes walking back in a room with her phone in her hand.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
She can't believe what's on. You guys are not going to believe what just happened. And so people condition themselves that when they say no, they're safe. And they're willing to entertain stuff that they've been blocking previously just because saying yes scared them.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
How can you give yourself a lot of practice to start with? First of all, the test to see if it worked. And the most common thing is calling somebody on the phone or even stopping them and saying, have you got a few minutes to talk? Flip that to is now a bad time to talk. That will get your practice.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
Now, I'll tell you in advance what the reaction is going to be when you say it's now a bad time to talk. They're going to hesitate for a moment and then they're like, no, no, what do you got? Or they'll say, as a matter of fact, it is a bad time. And then they'll tell you when they can't talk. And what you want is you want a conversation where they don't feel guarded.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And I've never had anybody not give me a better time. And plus, in many cases... They may be able to talk to you, but they're distracted. A lot of people make the mistake of multitasking. When we were talking about, you know, the bourbon that my company's launching, you know, I got my bourbon shirt on, the difference. You know, anything I get, I'm a human billboard.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
I'm going to advertise my stuff when I get the opportunity.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
But the guy that did the bourbon, previously he'd done a documentary film on my company, Tactical Empathy. If you're interested, it's on Amazon. Yes, please. So he screened it for me, first time in Vegas. And the plan was a month and a half later, he's going to show it at a function in Beverly Hills. And the night I saw it, you know, I loved it.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And I woke up the next morning and I realized there was a fundamental flaw with the documentary. I was not going to allow it to go out unless this thing was fixed. So it's a Sunday afternoon and I got to talk to him. We got to fix this now. I sent him a two-line text. It's now a bad time to talk. You're not going to want to hear what I have to say.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
So in point of fact, he was on a Zoom call and he texted me back immediately and said, I'm in the middle of a Zoom call and I can talk to you at three. I'll call you at three. Now, if I'd have called him, he would have answered the phone because we have that kind of a relationship. We're good friends. He's going to pick up the phone.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
which means he would have taken my call while he was on a Zoom call, which means he would have done a bad job at both. I don't need that. I need his undivided attention because we've got a problem, and the clock is ticking on us really hard. And so I need him to let me know when he can speak to me undivided attention. It's now a bad time to talk. What is a bad time?
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
I don't want to talk to him when it's a bad time. I want him to give me an alternative time, and I need 100% focus. He's dialed in. He's prepping for bad news. Now, I don't know what was going through his mind. When you prep somebody for bad news, the worst that happens is they imagine something equal to what you have to say. Nine times out of ten, they imagine worse. Yes.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
I don't know what was on his mind. But again, the clock is ticking and we don't have time to argue about this. He calls me on the phone. I say, look, this is a problem. Derek Gaunt, he's a head of coaching. We left him out of the film. We have to put him in the film. He's been too critical to everything we've done. Now, we've been working on this film for a year.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
And Nick could rightly say, we've been working on this for a year. You know, what's the matter with you? This is going to cost me money. It's going to be a problem. But since I dialed him up with those two text messages, he says, okay, this is what we got to do. I need Derek's schedule. We got to get Derek on camera.
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
That means I got to get a camera crew to him or we got to get him to a camera crew. Now we're showing this film in a month and it's going to take, once we get the film, it's going to take me three weeks to edit it in. So we have to do this now. And I'm like done and done and done. But it all started with me not
The Jefferson Fisher Podcast
Chris Voss: FBI-Backed Tactics for Better Communication
letting him have a multitasking conversation which was the point of is now a bad time to talk i need focus and yes that's what's going to happen when you throw it out there to people yeah i just like the magic that can happen that all you have to do is just the turn of phrase what i see um for those that are listening to me and chris right now
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
Ask yourselves, how can I fearlessly find out early on without hurting anybody's feelings? Because I'm not going to ask legitimate questions. How do I allow myself to find out early on whether or not I'm the favorite of the fool? If you don't want to try, you're holding yourself hostage. I mean, release yourself because you're the one that's holding you back.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
And this scares the heck out of so many people. If they can get over this hurdle, if they can just put themselves in a mindset to find out, then they are going to be a long way towards using these skills because it's about releasing yourself in many ways. Steve, would you agree?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
Well, the first thing is to just ask what is the most horrifying question for everybody until they understand how good it is. And that's to say the other person, you got a lot of options out there. I mean, I got solid competitors. You could go to them. They got great resumes. Why me? That is like the magic phrase. I mean, it's an emotional intelligence surgical strike.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
Why does certain things to people that are vastly different than what is normally portrayed out there? Why is like this? It's an emotional intelligence surgical strike. You should never ask why. Unless you want them to defend you. Because why always triggers defensiveness, which is the bad advice. Find out their why is good advice, but it doesn't tell you that you shouldn't ask them why.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
Except if the why is about you and you are going to get an unguarded, honest answer or you're not going to get an answer. And if you don't get an answer, why you, there ain't no why for you there at all.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
That one or, you know, what a lot of people throw back on you, the person who either is taking advantage of you on purpose, and a lot of people are doing it by accident. They don't mean to be. You know, they're taught that it's okay, get three bits. But they're going to say, well, it's up to you to convince me.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
And if they throw it back on you like that or in some fashion, you are the fool in the game.
Young and Profiting with Hala Taha (Entrepreneurship, Sales, Marketing)
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
Ask yourselves, how can I fearlessly find out early on without hurting anybody's feelings? Because I'm not going to ask legitimate questions. How do I allow myself to find out early on whether or not I'm the favorite of the fool? If you don't want to try, you're holding yourself hostage. I mean, release yourself because you're the one that's holding you back.
Young and Profiting with Hala Taha (Entrepreneurship, Sales, Marketing)
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
And this scares the heck out of so many people. If they can get over this hurdle, if they can just put themselves in a mindset to find out, then they're going to be a long way towards using these skills because it's about releasing yourself in many ways. Steve, would you agree?
Young and Profiting with Hala Taha (Entrepreneurship, Sales, Marketing)
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
Well, the first thing is to just ask what is the most horrifying question for everybody until they understand how good it is. And that's to say to the other person, you got a lot of options out there. I mean, I got solid competitors. You could go to them. They got great resumes. Why me? That is like the magic phrase. I mean, it's an emotional intelligence, surgical strike.
Young and Profiting with Hala Taha (Entrepreneurship, Sales, Marketing)
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
Why does certain things to people that are vastly different than what is normally portrayed out there? Why is like this? It's an emotional intelligence surgical strike. You should never ask why unless you want them to defend you. Because why always triggers defensiveness, which is the bad advice. Find out their why is good advice, but it doesn't tell you that you shouldn't ask them why. Except.
Young and Profiting with Hala Taha (Entrepreneurship, Sales, Marketing)
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
If the why is about you and you are going to get an unguarded, honest answer, or you're not going to get an answer. And if you don't get an answer, why you, there ain't no why for you there at all.
Young and Profiting with Hala Taha (Entrepreneurship, Sales, Marketing)
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
That one or, you know, what a lot of people throw back on you, the person who either is taking advantage of you on purpose, and a lot of people are doing it by accident. They don't mean to be. You know, they're taught that it's okay, get three bits. But they're going to say, well, it's up to you to convince me.
Young and Profiting with Hala Taha (Entrepreneurship, Sales, Marketing)
Hala Taha: AI-Powered Sales, How to Automate, Optimize, and Close More Deals | Sales
And if they throw it back on you like that or in some fashion, you are the fool in the game.