Clare Stephens

She's got Ella's down loss.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like it's a choice, right?

Yeah.

Well, I think her answer to that question of basically why do you annoy people so much was so good because she acknowledges that since she was in preschool, she's annoyed people.

She's annoyed other children.

She's annoyed.

She's just all... And I found that really...

freeing to hear because I thought... I was just very honest too.

Yeah, and I was like, I think I was that kid.

And I don't know, like I wasn't aware of why I was annoying everyone, but it's quite nice to hear somebody be that forthcoming about that and a little bit self-aware that I irritate people.

And she sort of, that was ultimately the big criticism of her.

I feel like she, her rise intersected with so many different movements.

She got a lot of criticism as I think America was becoming a bit more aware of representations of race in popular culture.

People were saying, you're making a show about New York City and everyone's white.

And you could see her try to figure that out in real time, which is awkward to watch somebody clearly realize that they're doing something wrong.

But it's also you're thinking, well, that's we've all got blind spots.

But I have been thinking about Lena Dunham for a couple of years now because...

When I was finishing my book and then when I was doing some interviews about it, I got asked basically what was the story or what was the thing about people getting cancelled, and I use that word, you know, it's a loaded word, but, you know, people getting their reputation destroyed, what example was it that made you drawn to this subject?