Clare Stephens

And with Too Much, it was very much people, and I did it, drawing parallels between her relationship with Jack Antonoff and all of that.

But in terms of the why, the why for her doing this...

because it is what her father says, and you do think it while you're listening to her speaking, I think ultimately we all have a deep human instinct to be understood.

And I think she probably...

still feels misunderstood.

Like from everything, when you go back and look at all the stuff that she got quote-unquote cancelled for, so much of it is absurd and some of it is really legitimate, which she acknowledges that she needed to apologise for things and that she did.

But I do think that you can tell...

She kind of outwardly says this isn't what she's doing.

But I think she wants to be understood.

I think...

There is also a human instinct to take credit and to put... And to be known.

And to be known.

And I think that it is like you always have this weird thing, Holly, where you'd want to be out of Elton John and... Bernie Taupin, they wrote all the songs.

You want to be Bernie.

As if you don't want to be like, that's me, I'm the genius.

But I think these are both writers that we're referring to.

Obviously, Freda McFadden's fiction and Lena Dunham has written memoir.

I think when you're a writer, your whole life is about

making sense of yourself and it's incredibly narcissistic.

But like wrestling with who am I and what is my story and all of that, I completely, Lena Dunham coming back and writing this memoir feels like the most inevitable thing in the world.