Claude Walker

of which I was also a shareholder.

So there is a long history and they've had the internal disagreements and fights about things as well.

But it's a long standing history of like, I guess, greenie boomers for want of a better description that sort of started this thing and driven it a long way.

And I just think that there is like a lot of good in the enthralled into like maneuverings over the years.

I think there's like a lot of integrity in that company DNA.

So hence I have a soft spot for them.

And then, but of course, how can you criticize the well-meaning nature of something like Future Super, which, you know, is started by like climate activists in response partly to the fact

that Australian ethical was investing in Westpac essentially.

And they wanted to have a climate, you know, a climate friendly super option.

And that's how the beta shares ones that I was talking about, the ETS, that's what created the demand for those beta shares ETS, which you can now just directly buy on the stock market with lower fees, which is a great product of which everyone's benefited.

So there's a lot of good people that have done a lot of good things over the years in this space.

But then of course you also do have like down at the bottom of the pile, you know,

you know, I don't think it would matter for me to say this, but like historically, I think it's fair to say that AMP, for example, has put out some, you know, ethical investing products, which I've found less than impressive.

You know, I wouldn't, I would hope, you know, I would, I don't think I would put it, I would put it out there that, you know, people would have invested in those products thinking that they were more ethical than they were, put it that way, in my opinion.

And then you've also got, you know, the adherence, like there's an interesting vibe, an interesting movement, especially amongst certain people who tend to be older, but not always, but mostly are older people, where they almost find ethical investing like offensive, like for some reason, to the point where they'll attack it and say, oh, it's wrong to, you know, there's been articles basically saying that, you know,

ethical investing is bad.

And then those same organizations that publish those articles, like subsequently, you know, 10, 20 years later, they're like putting out, you know, oh, here's our ethical fund offering, you know?

And, you know, on the happy side, that means that there's change within the organization and that's organizations getting better and more open to it.

So that's good as well.

So I think there's probably...