Dan Ivascyn

You know, Trump put tariffs on during his first administration.

The Democrats weren't super supportive of that.

Many Republicans weren't super supportive of that.

He left.

The tariffs didn't get reversed.

I think just an example of how, from a political perspective today, people realize that trade isn't helping all segments of the economy in that tariff policy.

And if it's not tariffs, some type of more aggressive industrial policy or policy towards our adversaries is warranted.

So it may take a slightly different form, but this idea of dealing with conflict, addressing the China problem, trying to come up with some creative ways to ensure that those that have been

left behind by globalization, you know, see a shot for their incomes to go up.

Some of these are themes that are, again, going to be hard to reverse in our

unpredictable in nature, they can be orderly or at times represent more disorderly change like we've seen all of a sudden in the Middle East this year.

Tensions had existed there for quite some time.

In the absence of armed conflict, the economy and market performance this year would likely have been quite different.

So you're not sure when these things are going to erupt.

You just know that they're likely to erupt with more frequency than what we remember from the old days.

Absolutely.

And I look back at some of PIMCO's views.

We may talk about this later, back in the mid-2000s, aggressive underwriting concerns, developing the banking system.

We were worried.

We thought, wait a minute, if this continues, we're going to have a recession.