Dan Ivascyn

And you can do that at a spread pickup to their underlying credit of two percentage points, as an example.

So now you're talking about getting the same type of yield you'd get on typically a very high risk investment for a

something that's a bit more complex, happens to be quite liquid as well.

So if investors change their mind, they can sell out of it very, very quickly.

In fact, that bond in question is one of the most liquid bonds out there in the market.

What's that, the meta data center bond?

That'd be the Beignet deal, that data center deal.

Just given its size and given the sponsorship out there, that's a very, very liquid instrument.

So that would be one, a high quality way to generate

much higher incremental returns.

So instead of owning a high yield bond fund, I can own this type of risk that's investment grade, get the same type of spread.

The other bucket, and there is this entire other part of the ecosystem, which is risky.

lending, um, within this space there, we think investors and we'll look at that risk as a equity alternative.

So we'll compare it to a NASDAQ stock, or we'll compare it to a dividend producing equity investment and say, yeah, it doesn't have the same type of safeguards.

We still got to be careful about concentrations, but we can go out there and, you know, target deals that are well-structured, but lower quality.

And now we're looking at

nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15% type returns.

So you compare that to historical risky stock returns.

It looks pretty good.

I think it's very, very important though for investors, um, within PIMCO and elsewhere to put it in the risky bucket though.