Daniel McConnell

Because it does deliberately... To an insider, that sort of talk is just... It's bonkers.

What has been your most challenging moment?

And we'll get into the housing in deeper detail shortly.

But what has been your most frustrating time moment as a minister?

I've long held the view that

having, you know, I started in Les Giles in 2007.

So I was a couple, so I was like your generation, Derek O'Leary, Michael McGrath, like we all started at the same time in Les Giles.

So I was there through the end of Bertie into Brian Cannon's government, that collapse of government.

And the crash, it was horrific.

But for me, the legacy, or one of the legacies is that is that the permanent government

became too powerful.

That balance between the political class and the permanent government became out of sync.

I think you guys are trying to redress that balance.

But,

Can you convince me that the civil service are not too powerful in this country?

Or do you think you guys can still run the table?

The scars are still there.

Let me be frank, right?

I'm in a lot of rooms now.

Having left Leinster House, I'm in rooms with business leaders all the time.