Dave Davies

So Philip Sheenan, we talked about how Pope John XXIII with the Second Vatican Council initiated a lot of reforms in the Catholic Church. Some were enacted. The four popes who followed by and large didn't advance those efforts and in many cases kind of reversed them.

The pope who immediately followed John XXIII was Pope Paul VI, the guy who was kind of reluctant to take it on and seemed to have come under the influence of some of the more conservatives in Catholicism. Vatican. One of the things that John XXIII had done was he had developed a commission to investigate the subject of birth control. This was a pretty serious effort, wasn't it?

The pope who immediately followed John XXIII was Pope Paul VI, the guy who was kind of reluctant to take it on and seemed to have come under the influence of some of the more conservatives in Catholicism. Vatican. One of the things that John XXIII had done was he had developed a commission to investigate the subject of birth control. This was a pretty serious effort, wasn't it?

The pope who immediately followed John XXIII was Pope Paul VI, the guy who was kind of reluctant to take it on and seemed to have come under the influence of some of the more conservatives in Catholicism. Vatican. One of the things that John XXIII had done was he had developed a commission to investigate the subject of birth control. This was a pretty serious effort, wasn't it?

Right. And this is fascinating because Pope Paul VI, he issues this encyclical called Of Human Life, which fully rejects the findings of this commission about liberalizing rules on birth control and rejects it completely. What was the reaction in the church among Catholics? How was it received?

Right. And this is fascinating because Pope Paul VI, he issues this encyclical called Of Human Life, which fully rejects the findings of this commission about liberalizing rules on birth control and rejects it completely. What was the reaction in the church among Catholics? How was it received?

Right. And this is fascinating because Pope Paul VI, he issues this encyclical called Of Human Life, which fully rejects the findings of this commission about liberalizing rules on birth control and rejects it completely. What was the reaction in the church among Catholics? How was it received?

Right. Polling showed that Catholics everywhere disapproved of this, and clergy in the Netherlands basically revolted, right?

Right. Polling showed that Catholics everywhere disapproved of this, and clergy in the Netherlands basically revolted, right?

Right. Polling showed that Catholics everywhere disapproved of this, and clergy in the Netherlands basically revolted, right?

You know, this backsliding and essentially rejection of the reforms of Vatican II lasted over the next four popes that followed John XXIII, all who were different from each other in one way or another. But they pretty much used their power to impede or roll back these reforms.

You know, this backsliding and essentially rejection of the reforms of Vatican II lasted over the next four popes that followed John XXIII, all who were different from each other in one way or another. But they pretty much used their power to impede or roll back these reforms.

You know, this backsliding and essentially rejection of the reforms of Vatican II lasted over the next four popes that followed John XXIII, all who were different from each other in one way or another. But they pretty much used their power to impede or roll back these reforms.

I wonder, have you reflected on what motivated so many of these popes to resist change and embrace practices out of step with the lives so many Catholics were leading?

I wonder, have you reflected on what motivated so many of these popes to resist change and embrace practices out of step with the lives so many Catholics were leading?

I wonder, have you reflected on what motivated so many of these popes to resist change and embrace practices out of step with the lives so many Catholics were leading?

We need to take another break here. Let me reintroduce you. We are speaking with Philip Sheenan. He is a veteran investigative reporter. His new book is Jesus Wept, Seven Popes and the Battle for the Soul of the Catholic Church. He'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm Dave Davies. This is Fresh Air.

We need to take another break here. Let me reintroduce you. We are speaking with Philip Sheenan. He is a veteran investigative reporter. His new book is Jesus Wept, Seven Popes and the Battle for the Soul of the Catholic Church. He'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm Dave Davies. This is Fresh Air.

We need to take another break here. Let me reintroduce you. We are speaking with Philip Sheenan. He is a veteran investigative reporter. His new book is Jesus Wept, Seven Popes and the Battle for the Soul of the Catholic Church. He'll be back to talk more after this short break. I'm Dave Davies. This is Fresh Air.

I wanted to return to a moment with Pope Paul VI, who was the one after John XXIII. In the 60s and 70s, he was the pope, and he had affirmed the church's ban on birth control despite the recommendation of a commission that had been established, which favored relaxing the rules.