David Boree

is very cultish, but Ziz is one of a number of different people who have calved off of the rationalism community and had disastrous impacts.

But it happens constantly with these people because like- It's got such an engine for it, right?

Yes, it's an engine for making cults.

This is a cult factory for sure.

Yeah, we created a cult factory.

To give you the base ideas and then you can just kind of franchise it how you'd like.

Yeah.

And a lot of prominent rationalists who news is at the time have since gone out of their way to describe her as like, you know, someone on the fringes.

Anna Salomon of CIFAR described her as a young person who was hanging around and who I suspect wanted to be important.

And Anna claims- Is there anyone here who doesn't want that within this group?

They're all- No, that's all of them, right?

That's the whole community.

And Anna was emailing directly, gave Ziz some of the advice that Ziz considered key to her moving to the Bay Area and stuff, right?

The rationalists really, really want you to think that this was just some fringe person, but she's very much tied in to all of this stuff, right?

Yeah.

So for her part, Ziz doesn't deny that failing to convince other rationalists was part of why she pulled away from mainstream rationalism.

But she's also going to claim that a big reason for her break is sexual abuse among people leading in the rationalist community.

And there's a specific case that she'll cite later that doesn't happen until 2018.

But this is a problem people were discussing in 2017 when she's living on that boat.

The representative story is the case of Sonia Joseph, who was the basis of that Bloomberg news piece I've quoted from a couple of times.