David E. Sanger

So it's not staying within the Apple network and it's going out as an SMS message. The Chinese could read those.

So it's not staying within the Apple network and it's going out as an SMS message. The Chinese could read those.

It really is. And it tells you how effective they are. And initially, the American investigators thought that the Chinese were just really focusing on Washington and Washington players. But the more they dug in, the more they discovered, no, they were in the entire system around the country. And then it got worse because it turns out that the telecom companies run for the U.S.

It really is. And it tells you how effective they are. And initially, the American investigators thought that the Chinese were just really focusing on Washington and Washington players. But the more they dug in, the more they discovered, no, they were in the entire system around the country. And then it got worse because it turns out that the telecom companies run for the U.S.

government the lawful taps that are put on the phones of suspected criminals or spies.

government the lawful taps that are put on the phones of suspected criminals or spies.

That's right. And of course, the government can go get the warrant, but the government doesn't run the phone system. So then they have to take that warrant to AT&T or Verizon or another company and say, we need to tap this phone number. Well, the Chinese got in so deeply that they could figure out which phone numbers they were listening to.

That's right. And of course, the government can go get the warrant, but the government doesn't run the phone system. So then they have to take that warrant to AT&T or Verizon or another company and say, we need to tap this phone number. Well, the Chinese got in so deeply that they could figure out which phone numbers they were listening to.

And then they could figure out, wow, they're on to this suspected Chinese spy and they're on to this one, but they don't know about this third one.

And then they could figure out, wow, they're on to this suspected Chinese spy and they're on to this one, but they don't know about this third one.

That's right. So just think about this. If the Chinese know... which Chinese spies we're on to and which ones we aren't, it gives them a huge advantage. They begin to know if they need to send more spies in. So there's a huge counterintelligence factor to the salt typhoon hack as well.

That's right. So just think about this. If the Chinese know... which Chinese spies we're on to and which ones we aren't, it gives them a huge advantage. They begin to know if they need to send more spies in. So there's a huge counterintelligence factor to the salt typhoon hack as well.

It's a great question because the Chinese have shown from this that they could get into most of these ordinary phone calls. The question is, would they want to, right? They seem to be quite focused on national security officials, politicians. Now, I can imagine, Sabrina, that for you, they may want to go in and figure out what's going to be on the daily and in a couple of days.

It's a great question because the Chinese have shown from this that they could get into most of these ordinary phone calls. The question is, would they want to, right? They seem to be quite focused on national security officials, politicians. Now, I can imagine, Sabrina, that for you, they may want to go in and figure out what's going to be on the daily and in a couple of days.

But in case they're not interested in that, they're probably not going in to listen to ordinary Americans talk about how much milk and eggs to go pick up on the way home from work. But the fact that they have the capability to go do this throughout the system is pretty shocking. Now, there's an exception to this. When you're talking on an ordinary phone line,

But in case they're not interested in that, they're probably not going in to listen to ordinary Americans talk about how much milk and eggs to go pick up on the way home from work. But the fact that they have the capability to go do this throughout the system is pretty shocking. Now, there's an exception to this. When you're talking on an ordinary phone line,

The phone conversation is largely unencrypted. But if you're talking over WhatsApp or Signal, or even if you are talking from iPhone to an iPhone or messaging between iPhones, then those are usually encrypted. And the Chinese would be able to see that there was a conversation underway, but they couldn't listen in or look at or read the content.

The phone conversation is largely unencrypted. But if you're talking over WhatsApp or Signal, or even if you are talking from iPhone to an iPhone or messaging between iPhones, then those are usually encrypted. And the Chinese would be able to see that there was a conversation underway, but they couldn't listen in or look at or read the content.

That's right. And, you know, there are some encrypted conversations that with a lot of work you can pierce, but by and large, you're a lot safer on an encrypted line. And last week... The U.S. government, for the first time that I can ever recall, came out and told Americans, you should use encrypted apps to communicate until we have this problem solved. Huh.

That's right. And, you know, there are some encrypted conversations that with a lot of work you can pierce, but by and large, you're a lot safer on an encrypted line. And last week... The U.S. government, for the first time that I can ever recall, came out and told Americans, you should use encrypted apps to communicate until we have this problem solved. Huh.