David E. Sanger

And that's a big change because it was only back in the Obama administration that the FBI was complaining about encrypted apps. Right. They couldn't listen in if there was a criminal case underway or a kidnapping.

And that's a big change because it was only back in the Obama administration that the FBI was complaining about encrypted apps. Right. They couldn't listen in if there was a criminal case underway or a kidnapping.

That's right. And basically, they've decided now, because of the severity of this act, to reverse their advice and tell Americans, go use encryption.

That's right. And basically, they've decided now, because of the severity of this act, to reverse their advice and tell Americans, go use encryption.

The best I can discern from telecom executives and other experts is they took advantage of the fact that our phone systems are actually the amalgam of really new, sleek digital equipment and really old, creaky equipment that's been sitting around for 40 years. Okay, so how does that make it vulnerable?

The best I can discern from telecom executives and other experts is they took advantage of the fact that our phone systems are actually the amalgam of really new, sleek digital equipment and really old, creaky equipment that's been sitting around for 40 years. Okay, so how does that make it vulnerable?

Because these old systems have been embedded in the telecom system for the longest time, from an age that goes back before hacking. And so there's almost no way to build modern protections into them because these systems were built so long ago, it was before anybody had protections in mind. So let me give you an example. Yeah, please.

Because these old systems have been embedded in the telecom system for the longest time, from an age that goes back before hacking. And so there's almost no way to build modern protections into them because these systems were built so long ago, it was before anybody had protections in mind. So let me give you an example. Yeah, please.

If you're going to do a banking transaction over your phone, you frequently get a code that comes back from the bank that you have to insert first so that they're sure that they're talking to you on your phone. And you insert it, and we've gotten used to it. It drives us crazy, but we all understand why we need to do it. In the cyber world, that's called multi-factor authentication.

If you're going to do a banking transaction over your phone, you frequently get a code that comes back from the bank that you have to insert first so that they're sure that they're talking to you on your phone. And you insert it, and we've gotten used to it. It drives us crazy, but we all understand why we need to do it. In the cyber world, that's called multi-factor authentication.

So it's something other than just your password to make sure that it's really you. But inside these telecom systems, there was no multi-factor authentication. So once they got the master password, they were in the system. They were able to roam freely across the system without ever being challenged again for credentials or identification. Imagine this.

So it's something other than just your password to make sure that it's really you. But inside these telecom systems, there was no multi-factor authentication. So once they got the master password, they were in the system. They were able to roam freely across the system without ever being challenged again for credentials or identification. Imagine this.

Imagine that you showed your ID once at the airport. Right. But before you got on an international flight, no one asked to see your passport one more time. That's sort of what happened here.

Imagine that you showed your ID once at the airport. Right. But before you got on an international flight, no one asked to see your passport one more time. That's sort of what happened here.

That's right, but they did something even more strategic. They realized that our systems were old and rickety, and they looked for the seams between that old equipment and the new equipment because they knew the older equipment was going to be their way inside.

That's right, but they did something even more strategic. They realized that our systems were old and rickety, and they looked for the seams between that old equipment and the new equipment because they knew the older equipment was going to be their way inside.

We've been spying on each other for decades. And it's always been an article of faith that we can hack into systems better than any other country can. That's always been the assumption. And it was backed up 10 years ago when Edward Snowden, who you'll remember was a contractor for the National Security Agency,

We've been spying on each other for decades. And it's always been an article of faith that we can hack into systems better than any other country can. That's always been the assumption. And it was backed up 10 years ago when Edward Snowden, who you'll remember was a contractor for the National Security Agency,

revealed a huge trove of documents that exposed that the NSA was getting inside the Chinese telecommunications systems and particularly aiming at Huawei, the Chinese telecommunications giant that's been supported by the government. And for years, the U.S. government has been banning Huawei equipment from the U.S. for fear that if Huawei was inside our networks...

revealed a huge trove of documents that exposed that the NSA was getting inside the Chinese telecommunications systems and particularly aiming at Huawei, the Chinese telecommunications giant that's been supported by the government. And for years, the U.S. government has been banning Huawei equipment from the U.S. for fear that if Huawei was inside our networks...