David Frum

torture centers in third countries, the centers that have been closed down by American courts because they violate basic norms of due process in American civil rights and civil liberties.

It's a shocking, shocking story.

And even as I record in the final week of January, it is amazing how much of this story remains murky and mysterious.

An American citizen has been killed.

We don't know the names of his killer.

We don't know whether the killer has been removed from the streets of Minneapolis.

We don't know what kind of... The representatives of the state of Minnesota have been debarred from investigating what happened, how this terrible event could have unfolded in the way that it did.

A man has been shot in the back when he was disarmed while he was being...

beaten in a beating we all saw on camera for the apparent offense of recording the activities of law enforcement and personnel, which was his total right to do, while carrying a gun, which was his right to do.

I'm someone who's pretty skeptical of the way American gun rights have unfolded, but skepticism does not mean that if you carry a gun according to the law of your state, that gives the agents of the state power or right to seize you

force you to the ground, remove the gun from you, beat you, and then shoot you in the back, reportedly 10 times.

Something has gone terribly, terribly wrong, and it's getting wronger.

Now, the good news is that a substantial majority of American citizens object to this wrong and oppose it, and that majority seems to be growing.

The bad news is that an important minority continue to defend these actions.

and are rallying to the support of the personnel who commit these acts and the larger structures of permission that authorize and enable and defend these acts.

The country that is now split on the basic question, can an American citizen be gunned down on the streets of his own city while carrying in his hands nothing more dangerous than a cell phone?

Opinion is split.

David Brooks and I, in our dialogue, will talk a little bit about how someday the MAGA forces, the people who supported MAGA, may be reintegrated into the American family, into American democracy.

David Brooks advocates a very open-armed and forgiving approach.

I'm not so sure that he's right about that, but that is something that we'll discuss and you will form your own opinion after hearing our discussion.