David Marchese

It involves like a kind of idealism and self-control that the culture doesn't really value that much anymore, particularly in cynical times. And I don't know what she would say, but my hunch is that I don't think she would say that much has changed in the 15 years since that book came out. What's your response to that argument?

So when you go on stage for your last performance in the fall, what do you hope you'll feel in that moment that will make that performance be a satisfying ending to this part of your career and your life?

So when you go on stage for your last performance in the fall, what do you hope you'll feel in that moment that will make that performance be a satisfying ending to this part of your career and your life?

Oh, huh.

Oh, huh.

That's Misty Copeland. Her final performance with the American Ballet Theatre will be in October. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Rowan Nemisto and Marian Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew, and Wyatt Orme is our producer.

That's Misty Copeland. Her final performance with the American Ballet Theatre will be in October. This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon. Mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Rowan Nemisto and Marian Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. Our senior booker is Priya Matthew, and Wyatt Orme is our producer.

Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Matty Maciello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. And a reminder that we have a new YouTube channel where you can watch this interview and many others.

Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Renan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, Matty Maciello, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to The Interview wherever you get your podcasts. And a reminder that we have a new YouTube channel where you can watch this interview and many others.

Subscribe at youtube.com slash at the interview podcast. Next week, Lulu talks with Senator Lisa Murkowski. I'm David Marchese, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.

Subscribe at youtube.com slash at the interview podcast. Next week, Lulu talks with Senator Lisa Murkowski. I'm David Marchese, and this is The Interview from The New York Times.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm David Marchese. I bet we all know plenty of smart, accomplished, and ambitious people whose ambitions start and stop with themselves. For Rucker Bregman, those people represent a potentially world-changing opportunity.

From The New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm David Marchese. I bet we all know plenty of smart, accomplished, and ambitious people whose ambitions start and stop with themselves. For Rucker Bregman, those people represent a potentially world-changing opportunity.

Bregman is a historian and writer who has written best-selling books arguing that the world is better than we're typically led to believe, and also that making it even better and more equitable is within our reach. Sounds a little off these days, doesn't it?

Bregman is a historian and writer who has written best-selling books arguing that the world is better than we're typically led to believe, and also that making it even better and more equitable is within our reach. Sounds a little off these days, doesn't it?

Even Bregman is willing to admit that the arguments in his first two books, which are 2020's Humankind and 2017's Utopia for Realists, land a little less convincingly today than when they were first published. But his new book, Moral Ambition, Stop Wasting Your Talent and Start Making a Difference, is his attempt to meet the current moment by redirecting self-interest into a kind of social good.

Even Bregman is willing to admit that the arguments in his first two books, which are 2020's Humankind and 2017's Utopia for Realists, land a little less convincingly today than when they were first published. But his new book, Moral Ambition, Stop Wasting Your Talent and Start Making a Difference, is his attempt to meet the current moment by redirecting self-interest into a kind of social good.

He's trying to incentivize the kind of people I mentioned earlier, society's brightest and most privileged, to turn away from what he sees as meaningless and hollow, albeit lucrative, white-collar jobs in favor of far more exciting and even self-aggrandizing work that has the possibility of changing the world.

He's trying to incentivize the kind of people I mentioned earlier, society's brightest and most privileged, to turn away from what he sees as meaningless and hollow, albeit lucrative, white-collar jobs in favor of far more exciting and even self-aggrandizing work that has the possibility of changing the world.

That's also the driving idea behind a school he's co-founded called the School for Moral Ambition, which you can think of as a kind of incubator for positive social impact. The big question for me, the source of some real skepticism, is how exactly he plans on convincing people to make that change and rethink their own values. Here's my conversation with Rutger Bregman.