David Marchese

That's also the driving idea behind a school he's co-founded called the School for Moral Ambition, which you can think of as a kind of incubator for positive social impact. The big question for me, the source of some real skepticism, is how exactly he plans on convincing people to make that change and rethink their own values. Here's my conversation with Rutger Bregman.

Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, David. So your new book is essentially an argument for why and how talented, high-achieving people should direct their energies toward doing more good in the world, towards more morally ambitious behavior. Do you see your writing as morally ambitious?

Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, David. So your new book is essentially an argument for why and how talented, high-achieving people should direct their energies toward doing more good in the world, towards more morally ambitious behavior. Do you see your writing as morally ambitious?

So what steps have you taken since writing the book to get off the sidelines into the arena?

So what steps have you taken since writing the book to get off the sidelines into the arena?

I saw that statistic in your book. I was surprised that the number was as high as 45%. But of course, materialism is real. A desire for status is real. People want to make money. They want to be well financially compensated. So how do you incentivize someone who might otherwise be tempted to go into a line of work that I think you see as basically morally vacuous at best?

I saw that statistic in your book. I was surprised that the number was as high as 45%. But of course, materialism is real. A desire for status is real. People want to make money. They want to be well financially compensated. So how do you incentivize someone who might otherwise be tempted to go into a line of work that I think you see as basically morally vacuous at best?

How would you incentivize them to Instead, pick a career that is morally ambitious.

How would you incentivize them to Instead, pick a career that is morally ambitious.

You know, there's sort of the dismissal of people's career choices as boring or the idea that, you know, if they're pursuing material wealth, you know, you're sort of holding your nose about them. And there is sort of that tone of, light sarcasm or a snideness that shows up in the book also. And I was wondering, why make the choice to communicate that way?

You know, there's sort of the dismissal of people's career choices as boring or the idea that, you know, if they're pursuing material wealth, you know, you're sort of holding your nose about them. And there is sort of that tone of, light sarcasm or a snideness that shows up in the book also. And I was wondering, why make the choice to communicate that way?

Yeah. What are the metrics you'll use or how will you determine whether or not your school is successful?

Yeah. What are the metrics you'll use or how will you determine whether or not your school is successful?

And how does one determine for themselves what counts as sufficiently ambitious moral behavior?

And how does one determine for themselves what counts as sufficiently ambitious moral behavior?

This guy can't be the benchmark. That's really the heart of my question. I'm almost getting there.

This guy can't be the benchmark. That's really the heart of my question. I'm almost getting there.

But I think part of the question is, I'll take myself as an example. So I do a handful of charitable or altruistic works, you know, all of which I do in my spare time. They don't really impinge on my life in any way. I am strategic about giving to charity, but not at a level where it affects day-to-day purchases I might make or something like that.

But I think part of the question is, I'll take myself as an example. So I do a handful of charitable or altruistic works, you know, all of which I do in my spare time. They don't really impinge on my life in any way. I am strategic about giving to charity, but not at a level where it affects day-to-day purchases I might make or something like that.

And I think, presumably, certainly if someone like Thomas Clarkson is the model, that is wildly... insufficient if my goal is to in any way help bring about a better world am i really prepared to do more than that i don't know but i would like someone maybe someone like you to help me better understand like what is the level at which i can say i'm doing enough