Deborah Cole

I think Germans, most establishment countries,

Germans from across the mainstream political parties are much more comfortable with the buildup within NATO.

That also has historical reasons.

But it's interesting that you mentioned the Spanish.

So when Philippe Matz was in Washington in March, and this was right after the beginning of the Iran war, Donald Trump started attacking Keir Starmer.

You know, he's no Winston Churchill.

Yeah.

And he also really went after Pedro Sanchez and the Spanish government at the time they had refused to allow any of their airspace or bases to be used in the Iran campaign.

And that was a provocation to Donald Trump.

And so he went after him and he said that they were going to sort of, you know, break off all trade and things.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah.

And so Friedrich Merz and a lot of people in Germany and certainly across Europe were a bit horrified to see that Friedrich Merz did not immediately stand up for the Spanish, who are partners in the European Union, partners in NATO.

They, you know, have a good bilateral or had a good bilateral relationship.

And there were days and days that went by when Mance was trying to get, you know, Sanchez on the phone and supposedly he changed his number.

I mean, it was a real diplomatic spud that it sparked.

And I think that that was not only sort of a bit tragic, but it was also symptomatic for if the United States is,

in whatever sense, pulls out as a true and committed partner to Europe, then it is going to revive tensions between European nations, rivalries that had been tamped down for years and years, for decades since the Second World War, essentially because of the building of these institutions that were backed up with American power.

You take them out of the mix in whatever way,