Deborah Roberts

Yeah. And that was that was critical, Denise, too. I mean, and for us, talk to us a little bit about why we choose to do these things, because I think one of the things our listeners find intriguing is how we got to that point and why we thought that was important. So why did we think that would make such a difference in our story?

Yeah, I actually had a story like that when I was in the courtroom with a prosecutor who had a stopwatch and was showing me about, you know, how this person had fired a gun. And it is really compelling to see that and have them bring that to us again. Let's talk about one of the key witnesses in this case, Vanessa Bowles. She was critical.

Yeah, I actually had a story like that when I was in the courtroom with a prosecutor who had a stopwatch and was showing me about, you know, how this person had fired a gun. And it is really compelling to see that and have them bring that to us again. Let's talk about one of the key witnesses in this case, Vanessa Bowles. She was critical.

And how does she come across to the jury? Because you think about she's the other woman, right? You would think that she would have little credibility with them because of what had happened.

And how does she come across to the jury? Because you think about she's the other woman, right? You would think that she would have little credibility with them because of what had happened.

But they were conflicted at first about how to sort of interpret her testimony.

But they were conflicted at first about how to sort of interpret her testimony.

But at the end of the day, they did believe her and her testimony was credible.

But at the end of the day, they did believe her and her testimony was credible.

Right. Right. All right, we're going to take one more break. And after that, the team that pursued justice for Carrie Baker against all odds.

Right. Right. All right, we're going to take one more break. And after that, the team that pursued justice for Carrie Baker against all odds.

We are back with Samantha and Denise, who just really dug into the story and brought it to air for us at 2020, along with John Quinones. And let's talk about some of the interviews that you got for the show, because a lot of them centered around law enforcement. And I have covered a lot of stories, too, where we know that they're cops and we think of them as sort of tough cops.

We are back with Samantha and Denise, who just really dug into the story and brought it to air for us at 2020, along with John Quinones. And let's talk about some of the interviews that you got for the show, because a lot of them centered around law enforcement. And I have covered a lot of stories, too, where we know that they're cops and we think of them as sort of tough cops.

But oftentimes, you know, these are people who are parents who are affected by what they're doing. So let's talk about Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon and investigator Abdin Rodriguez. I was struck by how much emotion Matt seemed to show at the end of our program. And maybe, Samantha, you can jump in on this.

But oftentimes, you know, these are people who are parents who are affected by what they're doing. So let's talk about Texas Ranger Matt Cawthon and investigator Abdin Rodriguez. I was struck by how much emotion Matt seemed to show at the end of our program. And maybe, Samantha, you can jump in on this.

Talk about what that perspective was like, you know, working on this case with him and seeing how it really affected him.

Talk about what that perspective was like, you know, working on this case with him and seeing how it really affected him.

That changed everything.

That changed everything.

Denise, what about Matt and Carrie's daughters? Because at the core of this case, they're children who have lost their mother and now lost their father, essentially, because he's away in prison. Talk to us a little bit about Carrie's daughters.