Dominic Sandbrook

When he says that society arrives only by envy at the success of others, I mean, that's quite a right-wing perspective, isn't it?

The politics of envy and all of that.

So you think he's specifically thinking about union leaders when he says that?

And also, Dominic, those awful enormous kipper ties and the brown suits.

And the very thick glasses frames.

I mean, it's really depressing.

Do they have those in France?

I don't think so.

However, on the positive side, as you remind us in your wonderful books, children do have space hoppers.

So it's not all bad.

whatever it might be because also the other thing is he's incredibly easy to impersonate and this is the golden age of beige impersonations as featured by mike yarwood who coined the phrase silly billy that dennis healy's always meant to be saying but doesn't and then dennis healy does actually take it up and starts using it and to his massive credit dennis healy also used to go on the dame edna everett show a lot did you see this he went on once with uh with roger moore

But presumably this is seen on the left of the Labour Party as the names of Zurich kicking in, international finance doing its worst.

It's the argument that Andy Burnham makes about, you know, don't be in hock to the capital markets and Zach Polanski saying it as well.

So it's a kind of a perspective that's coming back into fashion now.

Yeah, very sad, because he was such a brilliant, able, go-getting, technology kind of guy, wasn't he, in the 60s?

They will, yeah.

Shop-soiled is the word that's always used, isn't it?

Yeah.

The Tories aren't voting for these cuts.

No, the Tories will always vote against the government.