Dr. Caroline Fleck

I'm doing well. How are you?

I'm doing well. How are you?

I'm doing well. How are you?

I am excited to be here.

I am excited to be here.

I am excited to be here.

No, no, common mistake, but that's not what we're talking about. We're also not talking about agreement, which I want to clarify upfront because a lot of people confuse validation. If I validate somebody, I must agree with them, which is not the case.

No, no, common mistake, but that's not what we're talking about. We're also not talking about agreement, which I want to clarify upfront because a lot of people confuse validation. If I validate somebody, I must agree with them, which is not the case.

No, no, common mistake, but that's not what we're talking about. We're also not talking about agreement, which I want to clarify upfront because a lot of people confuse validation. If I validate somebody, I must agree with them, which is not the case.

That is my job. And I'm like having this moment as you're describing that of just this like warmth moment. this tingly warmth, like literally in my chest, because I have had that experience again and again and again with people both who are the victims in these situations, victims of pervasive invalidation, right? Who were told that their emotions don't matter, their bodies don't matter, right?

That is my job. And I'm like having this moment as you're describing that of just this like warmth moment. this tingly warmth, like literally in my chest, because I have had that experience again and again and again with people both who are the victims in these situations, victims of pervasive invalidation, right? Who were told that their emotions don't matter, their bodies don't matter, right?

That is my job. And I'm like having this moment as you're describing that of just this like warmth moment. this tingly warmth, like literally in my chest, because I have had that experience again and again and again with people both who are the victims in these situations, victims of pervasive invalidation, right? Who were told that their emotions don't matter, their bodies don't matter, right?

I've seen that side of it. I've also seen the perpetrators of those acts. And it's my job, oftentimes, to reform, to help those people change, which is a really difficult situation to be in when you have all these judgments, as one would, about what they're doing to themselves and to others. But when you flip that, when you are able to find something valid in their experience, it is...

I've seen that side of it. I've also seen the perpetrators of those acts. And it's my job, oftentimes, to reform, to help those people change, which is a really difficult situation to be in when you have all these judgments, as one would, about what they're doing to themselves and to others. But when you flip that, when you are able to find something valid in their experience, it is...

I've seen that side of it. I've also seen the perpetrators of those acts. And it's my job, oftentimes, to reform, to help those people change, which is a really difficult situation to be in when you have all these judgments, as one would, about what they're doing to themselves and to others. But when you flip that, when you are able to find something valid in their experience, it is...

It's a profound experience in both directions, both for me as the person working with that individual and then for that individual. All of these things that you're describing occur in cycles. If you look at the chain of cause and effect that led someone to be a rapist or to be X, Y, or Z, there's almost always a long history of invalidation, trauma behind that.

It's a profound experience in both directions, both for me as the person working with that individual and then for that individual. All of these things that you're describing occur in cycles. If you look at the chain of cause and effect that led someone to be a rapist or to be X, Y, or Z, there's almost always a long history of invalidation, trauma behind that.

It's a profound experience in both directions, both for me as the person working with that individual and then for that individual. All of these things that you're describing occur in cycles. If you look at the chain of cause and effect that led someone to be a rapist or to be X, Y, or Z, there's almost always a long history of invalidation, trauma behind that.

So validation communicates basically that you see the other person, you hear them, okay? If I was to give you the academic definition, we'd say validation communicates, first and foremost, it's a form of communication. It communicates mindfulness, understanding, and empathy in a way that conveys genuine acceptance, okay? So it's just that feeling of like, oh, I feel seen.

So validation communicates basically that you see the other person, you hear them, okay? If I was to give you the academic definition, we'd say validation communicates, first and foremost, it's a form of communication. It communicates mindfulness, understanding, and empathy in a way that conveys genuine acceptance, okay? So it's just that feeling of like, oh, I feel seen.

So validation communicates basically that you see the other person, you hear them, okay? If I was to give you the academic definition, we'd say validation communicates, first and foremost, it's a form of communication. It communicates mindfulness, understanding, and empathy in a way that conveys genuine acceptance, okay? So it's just that feeling of like, oh, I feel seen.

OK, so if you want to intervene in that cycle, you've got to be able to work with the perpetrators as well. Right. Like you have to if you're going to stop the cycle of violence, you have to intervene, you know, with those who are creating it. And in order to do that, you simply must be able to validate them. That's the only way to do it. It's the only way I know how to do it.

OK, so if you want to intervene in that cycle, you've got to be able to work with the perpetrators as well. Right. Like you have to if you're going to stop the cycle of violence, you have to intervene, you know, with those who are creating it. And in order to do that, you simply must be able to validate them. That's the only way to do it. It's the only way I know how to do it.

OK, so if you want to intervene in that cycle, you've got to be able to work with the perpetrators as well. Right. Like you have to if you're going to stop the cycle of violence, you have to intervene, you know, with those who are creating it. And in order to do that, you simply must be able to validate them. That's the only way to do it. It's the only way I know how to do it.

Yeah, and we have this feeling, I think, that they just don't deserve it. We're just shooting ourselves in the foot. And I think this has really become heightened as I see the politics playing out as they are. But the more entrenched we are in the belief that people don't deserve...

Yeah, and we have this feeling, I think, that they just don't deserve it. We're just shooting ourselves in the foot. And I think this has really become heightened as I see the politics playing out as they are. But the more entrenched we are in the belief that people don't deserve...

Yeah, and we have this feeling, I think, that they just don't deserve it. We're just shooting ourselves in the foot. And I think this has really become heightened as I see the politics playing out as they are. But the more entrenched we are in the belief that people don't deserve...

to be heard or seen or that we're gonna like do some type of reinforce their behavior in some way by doing that like this bad behavior that we don't like that is where we um actually end up contributing to the cycle um yeah it also reminds me of the uh

to be heard or seen or that we're gonna like do some type of reinforce their behavior in some way by doing that like this bad behavior that we don't like that is where we um actually end up contributing to the cycle um yeah it also reminds me of the uh

to be heard or seen or that we're gonna like do some type of reinforce their behavior in some way by doing that like this bad behavior that we don't like that is where we um actually end up contributing to the cycle um yeah it also reminds me of the uh

I haven't seen it yet. I want to.

I haven't seen it yet. I want to.

I haven't seen it yet. I want to.

And the Menendez brothers most recently. Oh, I saw that one. Yeah.

And the Menendez brothers most recently. Oh, I saw that one. Yeah.

And the Menendez brothers most recently. Oh, I saw that one. Yeah.

Oh, no, but as someone who works directly with, you know, not those specific people, but folks who are, you know, have serious behavioral and emotional problems. No, I see exactly what you're saying. Like, I think they dramatize that backstory, but it is very much there and real. You asked about, you know, what are the effects of validation and or invalidation?

Oh, no, but as someone who works directly with, you know, not those specific people, but folks who are, you know, have serious behavioral and emotional problems. No, I see exactly what you're saying. Like, I think they dramatize that backstory, but it is very much there and real. You asked about, you know, what are the effects of validation and or invalidation?

Oh, no, but as someone who works directly with, you know, not those specific people, but folks who are, you know, have serious behavioral and emotional problems. No, I see exactly what you're saying. Like, I think they dramatize that backstory, but it is very much there and real. You asked about, you know, what are the effects of validation and or invalidation?

We as a society have really failed to reckon with, to acknowledge, to even label what invalidation is and how it affects people, okay? So invalidation is anything that basically dismisses, punishes, or denies another person's reality, be it their emotions, be it their thoughts, be it their behavior, okay?

We as a society have really failed to reckon with, to acknowledge, to even label what invalidation is and how it affects people, okay? So invalidation is anything that basically dismisses, punishes, or denies another person's reality, be it their emotions, be it their thoughts, be it their behavior, okay?

We as a society have really failed to reckon with, to acknowledge, to even label what invalidation is and how it affects people, okay? So invalidation is anything that basically dismisses, punishes, or denies another person's reality, be it their emotions, be it their thoughts, be it their behavior, okay?

Invalidation is directly linked to some of the most common and also severe forms of psychological disorders, all right, from BPD to major depression to PTSD to narcissism to even psychopathy, okay? So this is not like, does it play a role? No, we know it is a key ingredient. Yes, there are biological predispositions and everything else.

Invalidation is directly linked to some of the most common and also severe forms of psychological disorders, all right, from BPD to major depression to PTSD to narcissism to even psychopathy, okay? So this is not like, does it play a role? No, we know it is a key ingredient. Yes, there are biological predispositions and everything else.

Invalidation is directly linked to some of the most common and also severe forms of psychological disorders, all right, from BPD to major depression to PTSD to narcissism to even psychopathy, okay? So this is not like, does it play a role? No, we know it is a key ingredient. Yes, there are biological predispositions and everything else.

But once you add invalidation into that mix, it's like a cowder peg explosion. Yeah, it's just boom. And we don't appreciate that, I think. And therefore, it's harder for us to validate people in those situations.

But once you add invalidation into that mix, it's like a cowder peg explosion. Yeah, it's just boom. And we don't appreciate that, I think. And therefore, it's harder for us to validate people in those situations.

But once you add invalidation into that mix, it's like a cowder peg explosion. Yeah, it's just boom. And we don't appreciate that, I think. And therefore, it's harder for us to validate people in those situations.

I feel like you really get me, all right? I can validate somebody even though I don't agree with their perspective. I can validate why somebody would eat meat even though I myself am a vegetarian. And if I wanted to try and change their opinion and have a debate, I could do that too. I could definitely find plenty that I disagree with and that I could nitpick.

I feel like you really get me, all right? I can validate somebody even though I don't agree with their perspective. I can validate why somebody would eat meat even though I myself am a vegetarian. And if I wanted to try and change their opinion and have a debate, I could do that too. I could definitely find plenty that I disagree with and that I could nitpick.

I feel like you really get me, all right? I can validate somebody even though I don't agree with their perspective. I can validate why somebody would eat meat even though I myself am a vegetarian. And if I wanted to try and change their opinion and have a debate, I could do that too. I could definitely find plenty that I disagree with and that I could nitpick.

Exactly. So again, as therapists, we are trained to do this. And that's why I am so passionate about this subject. No, innately, that's not how we are driven to respond. We respond with emotion. We respond to threat. That's what we look for. That's what we're trying to protect against.

Exactly. So again, as therapists, we are trained to do this. And that's why I am so passionate about this subject. No, innately, that's not how we are driven to respond. We respond with emotion. We respond to threat. That's what we look for. That's what we're trying to protect against.

Exactly. So again, as therapists, we are trained to do this. And that's why I am so passionate about this subject. No, innately, that's not how we are driven to respond. We respond with emotion. We respond to threat. That's what we look for. That's what we're trying to protect against.

But we have strategies to help people communicate effectively, even when they're being hit with a lot of offensive behavior. So in those situations that you're describing, you probably don't understand the other person's perspective in those moments or certainly not empathize when someone's coming at you and there's a conflict. But at the very least, we can have you just mindfully attend.

But we have strategies to help people communicate effectively, even when they're being hit with a lot of offensive behavior. So in those situations that you're describing, you probably don't understand the other person's perspective in those moments or certainly not empathize when someone's coming at you and there's a conflict. But at the very least, we can have you just mindfully attend.

But we have strategies to help people communicate effectively, even when they're being hit with a lot of offensive behavior. So in those situations that you're describing, you probably don't understand the other person's perspective in those moments or certainly not empathize when someone's coming at you and there's a conflict. But at the very least, we can have you just mindfully attend.

So this is kind of the first step to validation. If you just, we use these two skills, attending and copying. If you use just these two skills, and when I am hit with somebody, like I have a narcissistic client across from me, and they're going on about how the school that I graduated from, you know, Really, do I really think Duke was where it's at for clinical psychology?

So this is kind of the first step to validation. If you just, we use these two skills, attending and copying. If you use just these two skills, and when I am hit with somebody, like I have a narcissistic client across from me, and they're going on about how the school that I graduated from, you know, Really, do I really think Duke was where it's at for clinical psychology?

So this is kind of the first step to validation. If you just, we use these two skills, attending and copying. If you use just these two skills, and when I am hit with somebody, like I have a narcissistic client across from me, and they're going on about how the school that I graduated from, you know, Really, do I really think Duke was where it's at for clinical psychology?

Because they've done their research and they want to know why I didn't go or get into these other schools, right? And you're just, I can see it in your face right now, like there's just that like, oh, screw you.

Because they've done their research and they want to know why I didn't go or get into these other schools, right? And you're just, I can see it in your face right now, like there's just that like, oh, screw you.

Because they've done their research and they want to know why I didn't go or get into these other schools, right? And you're just, I can see it in your face right now, like there's just that like, oh, screw you.

More than once. Versions of that, not necessarily... specific to that school, but then like undergrad. Oh, so you went to U of M. Oh, that's interesting. I went to Yale. Hmm. How did you end up going from- It's so obnoxious. Oh, it's so obnoxious, yeah. But again, that's why these folks are referred to me, right? Like they are that obnoxious- Like in their real lives. Yeah, yeah.

More than once. Versions of that, not necessarily... specific to that school, but then like undergrad. Oh, so you went to U of M. Oh, that's interesting. I went to Yale. Hmm. How did you end up going from- It's so obnoxious. Oh, it's so obnoxious, yeah. But again, that's why these folks are referred to me, right? Like they are that obnoxious- Like in their real lives. Yeah, yeah.

More than once. Versions of that, not necessarily... specific to that school, but then like undergrad. Oh, so you went to U of M. Oh, that's interesting. I went to Yale. Hmm. How did you end up going from- It's so obnoxious. Oh, it's so obnoxious, yeah. But again, that's why these folks are referred to me, right? Like they are that obnoxious- Like in their real lives. Yeah, yeah.

Then they're struggling, okay? So that's why they come to see me. I mean, they come to see me for some other reason, but it's pretty obvious right out the gate that that's probably- what's causing a lot of the problems.

Then they're struggling, okay? So that's why they come to see me. I mean, they come to see me for some other reason, but it's pretty obvious right out the gate that that's probably- what's causing a lot of the problems.

Then they're struggling, okay? So that's why they come to see me. I mean, they come to see me for some other reason, but it's pretty obvious right out the gate that that's probably- what's causing a lot of the problems.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So in that point, I'm just annoyed. Right. I'm having that reaction. And so I can only use these two skills. This is what I was trained to do. I focus on what's this person's trying to say, like what's their message. And then more critically, how could I do a better job of making that point? I don't have to agree with their point. I am just trying to crystallize it.

Yeah. So in that point, I'm just annoyed. Right. I'm having that reaction. And so I can only use these two skills. This is what I was trained to do. I focus on what's this person's trying to say, like what's their message. And then more critically, how could I do a better job of making that point? I don't have to agree with their point. I am just trying to crystallize it.

Yeah. So in that point, I'm just annoyed. Right. I'm having that reaction. And so I can only use these two skills. This is what I was trained to do. I focus on what's this person's trying to say, like what's their message. And then more critically, how could I do a better job of making that point? I don't have to agree with their point. I am just trying to crystallize it.

And I don't even have to say this out loud. I just play this little game in my head. I'm thinking what's their point and how do I do a better job of making it as though I were in a debate and asked to like told that I had to argue why people should smoke. And I just have to kind of get behind that. All right. Then the other thing I do is I just repeat.

And I don't even have to say this out loud. I just play this little game in my head. I'm thinking what's their point and how do I do a better job of making it as though I were in a debate and asked to like told that I had to argue why people should smoke. And I just have to kind of get behind that. All right. Then the other thing I do is I just repeat.

And I don't even have to say this out loud. I just play this little game in my head. I'm thinking what's their point and how do I do a better job of making it as though I were in a debate and asked to like told that I had to argue why people should smoke. And I just have to kind of get behind that. All right. Then the other thing I do is I just repeat.

So I repeat the keywords they use and I copy their body language. If you just do those two things, you will slowly begin to understand and empathize. The copying is doing most of the work there for empathy because it triggers mirror neurons. I start to literally feel and experience some of what the other person is experiencing. That is fascinating stuff.

So I repeat the keywords they use and I copy their body language. If you just do those two things, you will slowly begin to understand and empathize. The copying is doing most of the work there for empathy because it triggers mirror neurons. I start to literally feel and experience some of what the other person is experiencing. That is fascinating stuff.

So I repeat the keywords they use and I copy their body language. If you just do those two things, you will slowly begin to understand and empathize. The copying is doing most of the work there for empathy because it triggers mirror neurons. I start to literally feel and experience some of what the other person is experiencing. That is fascinating stuff.

But if I'm just looking for the validity in their perspective, the kernel of truth, I can look and find that and communicate that.

But if I'm just looking for the validity in their perspective, the kernel of truth, I can look and find that and communicate that.

But if I'm just looking for the validity in their perspective, the kernel of truth, I can look and find that and communicate that.

Again, it's just like if you ever are like can't sleep at night and you want to do like a black hole search on the web, just get into the research on copying or mimicry because that stuff is fascinating in how it's used in conflict resolution, the effect it has on people's attraction to each other. We are hardwired to copy when we like people and we want them to like us.

Again, it's just like if you ever are like can't sleep at night and you want to do like a black hole search on the web, just get into the research on copying or mimicry because that stuff is fascinating in how it's used in conflict resolution, the effect it has on people's attraction to each other. We are hardwired to copy when we like people and we want them to like us.

Again, it's just like if you ever are like can't sleep at night and you want to do like a black hole search on the web, just get into the research on copying or mimicry because that stuff is fascinating in how it's used in conflict resolution, the effect it has on people's attraction to each other. We are hardwired to copy when we like people and we want them to like us.

OK, we don't copy when we feel attacked and we distrust the person across from us. But if you do copy in those situations, interestingly enough, you will start to build bridges. So it's again about doing kind of this is there's a skill to this. You're kind of pushing back sometimes against your natural inclinations.

OK, we don't copy when we feel attacked and we distrust the person across from us. But if you do copy in those situations, interestingly enough, you will start to build bridges. So it's again about doing kind of this is there's a skill to this. You're kind of pushing back sometimes against your natural inclinations.

OK, we don't copy when we feel attacked and we distrust the person across from us. But if you do copy in those situations, interestingly enough, you will start to build bridges. So it's again about doing kind of this is there's a skill to this. You're kind of pushing back sometimes against your natural inclinations.

And I'm noticing in myself just this kind of closing up that I start to do and I do the opposite. Just experiment with that, with just those two. And I promise the ability to understand and empathize will come out of it. And then you can use those skills.

And I'm noticing in myself just this kind of closing up that I start to do and I do the opposite. Just experiment with that, with just those two. And I promise the ability to understand and empathize will come out of it. And then you can use those skills.

And I'm noticing in myself just this kind of closing up that I start to do and I do the opposite. Just experiment with that, with just those two. And I promise the ability to understand and empathize will come out of it. And then you can use those skills.

Oh, you are? Yeah.

Oh, you are? Yeah.

Oh, you are? Yeah.

It is mindfulness. So these are two mindfulness skills. And so in these moments, I am really focusing on the other person, almost like that's the breath, right? Or that's the point of focus, is this other person. It's non-judgmental. That's the whole, like, what's their point and how could I improve upon it? Like, how could I sharpen it? I'm not judging the point. I'm not thinking of my rebuttal.

It is mindfulness. So these are two mindfulness skills. And so in these moments, I am really focusing on the other person, almost like that's the breath, right? Or that's the point of focus, is this other person. It's non-judgmental. That's the whole, like, what's their point and how could I improve upon it? Like, how could I sharpen it? I'm not judging the point. I'm not thinking of my rebuttal.

It is mindfulness. So these are two mindfulness skills. And so in these moments, I am really focusing on the other person, almost like that's the breath, right? Or that's the point of focus, is this other person. It's non-judgmental. That's the whole, like, what's their point and how could I improve upon it? Like, how could I sharpen it? I'm not judging the point. I'm not thinking of my rebuttal.

I'm not in my head thinking, what a jerk. Oh my gosh, what's this guy's problem? What's he trying to prove? If my mind is chewed up, like chewing on all that, I can't actually be nonjudgmental, much less like validate them.

I'm not in my head thinking, what a jerk. Oh my gosh, what's this guy's problem? What's he trying to prove? If my mind is chewed up, like chewing on all that, I can't actually be nonjudgmental, much less like validate them.

I'm not in my head thinking, what a jerk. Oh my gosh, what's this guy's problem? What's he trying to prove? If my mind is chewed up, like chewing on all that, I can't actually be nonjudgmental, much less like validate them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Right.

I get it.

I get it.

I get it.

I absolutely, 100%. I was also most of my life until, let's see, until college.

I absolutely, 100%. I was also most of my life until, let's see, until college.

I absolutely, 100%. I was also most of my life until, let's see, until college.

I saw a video of animals being experimented on, and it was just a devastating video of like where they were pumping like shampoo, you know, into some little monkey's tummy.

I saw a video of animals being experimented on, and it was just a devastating video of like where they were pumping like shampoo, you know, into some little monkey's tummy.

I saw a video of animals being experimented on, and it was just a devastating video of like where they were pumping like shampoo, you know, into some little monkey's tummy.

So I'm going to say something a little controversial, which is that I think, I believe validation is more important than love in some sense. It is certainly as important. It's a conduit. So if you don't feel accepted or seen by your partner, what does it mean to feel loved by them? Like you can't really feel loved from someone that doesn't know you.

So I'm going to say something a little controversial, which is that I think, I believe validation is more important than love in some sense. It is certainly as important. It's a conduit. So if you don't feel accepted or seen by your partner, what does it mean to feel loved by them? Like you can't really feel loved from someone that doesn't know you.

So I'm going to say something a little controversial, which is that I think, I believe validation is more important than love in some sense. It is certainly as important. It's a conduit. So if you don't feel accepted or seen by your partner, what does it mean to feel loved by them? Like you can't really feel loved from someone that doesn't know you.

And I think that's why a lot of us end up in relationships that feel empty in ways we can't quite put our finger on. And often it's because we haven't been vulnerable, we haven't risked, or they haven't been vulnerable, or worse yet, we've been vulnerable and they responded kind of negatively to it. They didn't engage, they shut down, or in the worst situations, they were critical.

And I think that's why a lot of us end up in relationships that feel empty in ways we can't quite put our finger on. And often it's because we haven't been vulnerable, we haven't risked, or they haven't been vulnerable, or worse yet, we've been vulnerable and they responded kind of negatively to it. They didn't engage, they shut down, or in the worst situations, they were critical.

And I think that's why a lot of us end up in relationships that feel empty in ways we can't quite put our finger on. And often it's because we haven't been vulnerable, we haven't risked, or they haven't been vulnerable, or worse yet, we've been vulnerable and they responded kind of negatively to it. They didn't engage, they shut down, or in the worst situations, they were critical.

Okay, boom, learn not to do that again. And I really like this person, so I'm not going to do that again. So in romantic relationships, if validation isn't communicated frequently and regularly, it's really hard to feel a sense of deep intimacy or love. It's just what is it based on, if that makes sense.

Okay, boom, learn not to do that again. And I really like this person, so I'm not going to do that again. So in romantic relationships, if validation isn't communicated frequently and regularly, it's really hard to feel a sense of deep intimacy or love. It's just what is it based on, if that makes sense.

Okay, boom, learn not to do that again. And I really like this person, so I'm not going to do that again. So in romantic relationships, if validation isn't communicated frequently and regularly, it's really hard to feel a sense of deep intimacy or love. It's just what is it based on, if that makes sense.

And and I just couldn't believe it. And then when I kind of looked behind that curtain of what goes on in a lot of these industries, I just like couldn't look.

And and I just couldn't believe it. And then when I kind of looked behind that curtain of what goes on in a lot of these industries, I just like couldn't look.

And and I just couldn't believe it. And then when I kind of looked behind that curtain of what goes on in a lot of these industries, I just like couldn't look.

Yeah. So when, and I work a lot with couples, but, and we'll do these assessments when they come in, you know, to kind of gauge the strength of the relationship. And one thing we ask about is kind of loneliness. Do you feel lonely in this relationship?

Yeah. So when, and I work a lot with couples, but, and we'll do these assessments when they come in, you know, to kind of gauge the strength of the relationship. And one thing we ask about is kind of loneliness. Do you feel lonely in this relationship?

Yeah. So when, and I work a lot with couples, but, and we'll do these assessments when they come in, you know, to kind of gauge the strength of the relationship. And one thing we ask about is kind of loneliness. Do you feel lonely in this relationship?

And when the answer is yes, I know one of the first things I've have to help them do is kind of develop these skills and then use them in communication with each other. Because loneliness is a symptom of not feeling seen, right? That's, that is the implication there.

And when the answer is yes, I know one of the first things I've have to help them do is kind of develop these skills and then use them in communication with each other. Because loneliness is a symptom of not feeling seen, right? That's, that is the implication there.

And when the answer is yes, I know one of the first things I've have to help them do is kind of develop these skills and then use them in communication with each other. Because loneliness is a symptom of not feeling seen, right? That's, that is the implication there.

And I think that's what a lot of people struggle with. They're afraid of being alone and yet don't realize that they're actually in a lot of ways lonelier in this relationship because there's no potential. It feels like there's no potential to be seen. So you're like, you know,

And I think that's what a lot of people struggle with. They're afraid of being alone and yet don't realize that they're actually in a lot of ways lonelier in this relationship because there's no potential. It feels like there's no potential to be seen. So you're like, you know,

And I think that's what a lot of people struggle with. They're afraid of being alone and yet don't realize that they're actually in a lot of ways lonelier in this relationship because there's no potential. It feels like there's no potential to be seen. So you're like, you know,

Away.

Away.

Away.

That doesn't make any sense. Correcting people's emotions. I think this is often the form that gaslighting takes, right? You're not frustrated, you're jealous. You're jealous of my success. You're not frustrated with your... And so this kind of emotion correcting where people are like, wait, am I jealous? Am I? So this is what we see in folks who come from pervasively invalidating environments.

That doesn't make any sense. Correcting people's emotions. I think this is often the form that gaslighting takes, right? You're not frustrated, you're jealous. You're jealous of my success. You're not frustrated with your... And so this kind of emotion correcting where people are like, wait, am I jealous? Am I? So this is what we see in folks who come from pervasively invalidating environments.

That doesn't make any sense. Correcting people's emotions. I think this is often the form that gaslighting takes, right? You're not frustrated, you're jealous. You're jealous of my success. You're not frustrated with your... And so this kind of emotion correcting where people are like, wait, am I jealous? Am I? So this is what we see in folks who come from pervasively invalidating environments.

Yeah. So for me, it's purely it's actually purely ethical. So if I can speak to a lot of valid reasons why even for health reasons, like when I first tried going vegan and like literally almost killed me because I was just eating like cereal and milk. It was bad.

Yeah. So for me, it's purely it's actually purely ethical. So if I can speak to a lot of valid reasons why even for health reasons, like when I first tried going vegan and like literally almost killed me because I was just eating like cereal and milk. It was bad.

Yeah. So for me, it's purely it's actually purely ethical. So if I can speak to a lot of valid reasons why even for health reasons, like when I first tried going vegan and like literally almost killed me because I was just eating like cereal and milk. It was bad.

They don't trust their own sense of... what's going on in the situation. They defer to others in the environment to figure out what they should be thinking and feeling because they've learned, they've been told repeatedly that their emotions are wrong. They shouldn't be feeling that way, right? Don't be a baby. Act your age. These messages. Now, those are we have all careful.

They don't trust their own sense of... what's going on in the situation. They defer to others in the environment to figure out what they should be thinking and feeling because they've learned, they've been told repeatedly that their emotions are wrong. They shouldn't be feeling that way, right? Don't be a baby. Act your age. These messages. Now, those are we have all careful.

They don't trust their own sense of... what's going on in the situation. They defer to others in the environment to figure out what they should be thinking and feeling because they've learned, they've been told repeatedly that their emotions are wrong. They shouldn't be feeling that way, right? Don't be a baby. Act your age. These messages. Now, those are we have all careful.

We've all said things like this to our kids before. Right. But it's like when that's done on a large scale, when every every other reaction the kid has is responded to in this way, you end up with adults who cannot trust themselves, much less be vulnerable with others.

We've all said things like this to our kids before. Right. But it's like when that's done on a large scale, when every every other reaction the kid has is responded to in this way, you end up with adults who cannot trust themselves, much less be vulnerable with others.

We've all said things like this to our kids before. Right. But it's like when that's done on a large scale, when every every other reaction the kid has is responded to in this way, you end up with adults who cannot trust themselves, much less be vulnerable with others.

Yeah, in some sense, but it can be overcome.

Yeah, in some sense, but it can be overcome.

Yeah, in some sense, but it can be overcome.

Yeah, that's my job.

Yeah, that's my job.

Yeah, that's my job.

Yes. And that has been many of the clients I work with. In working with folks who have BPD, the sad truth about that condition is that it is disproportionately higher in women and women with a history of sexual trauma. Because what could be more validating than BPD? sexual trauma, especially as a child. The people who are supposed to protect you are hurting you. Okay? It's hard to understand.

Yes. And that has been many of the clients I work with. In working with folks who have BPD, the sad truth about that condition is that it is disproportionately higher in women and women with a history of sexual trauma. Because what could be more validating than BPD? sexual trauma, especially as a child. The people who are supposed to protect you are hurting you. Okay? It's hard to understand.

Yes. And that has been many of the clients I work with. In working with folks who have BPD, the sad truth about that condition is that it is disproportionately higher in women and women with a history of sexual trauma. Because what could be more validating than BPD? sexual trauma, especially as a child. The people who are supposed to protect you are hurting you. Okay? It's hard to understand.

This doesn't feel right, but this is someone I should trust. This person knows what's right, and they're doing this. But this doesn't feel right. And then there's the confusing thing a lot of times, which people don't talk about often, which is that sometimes there's some component of pleasure involved for the child. Not always, but sometimes.

This doesn't feel right, but this is someone I should trust. This person knows what's right, and they're doing this. But this doesn't feel right. And then there's the confusing thing a lot of times, which people don't talk about often, which is that sometimes there's some component of pleasure involved for the child. Not always, but sometimes.

This doesn't feel right, but this is someone I should trust. This person knows what's right, and they're doing this. But this doesn't feel right. And then there's the confusing thing a lot of times, which people don't talk about often, which is that sometimes there's some component of pleasure involved for the child. Not always, but sometimes.

And that's confusing as hell because then it really feeds this narrative of I brought this on. I deserve this, which is also kind of reinforced oftentimes by the perpetrator. And you can just see this invalidating storm of like what's up and what's down. All I can conclude is that I'm bad. I'm wrong.

And that's confusing as hell because then it really feeds this narrative of I brought this on. I deserve this, which is also kind of reinforced oftentimes by the perpetrator. And you can just see this invalidating storm of like what's up and what's down. All I can conclude is that I'm bad. I'm wrong.

And that's confusing as hell because then it really feeds this narrative of I brought this on. I deserve this, which is also kind of reinforced oftentimes by the perpetrator. And you can just see this invalidating storm of like what's up and what's down. All I can conclude is that I'm bad. I'm wrong.

Again, that is my job. Yes. It is my job to first come in. And because then what folks may be doing as adults, not always, but folks who have developed problems, is that they're acting out in ways as adults that are really offensive, right? And make me say some version, like they're coming in and saying, oh, you went to this school, not that school. And I'm like, that's so gross, right?

Again, that is my job. Yes. It is my job to first come in. And because then what folks may be doing as adults, not always, but folks who have developed problems, is that they're acting out in ways as adults that are really offensive, right? And make me say some version, like they're coming in and saying, oh, you went to this school, not that school. And I'm like, that's so gross, right?

Again, that is my job. Yes. It is my job to first come in. And because then what folks may be doing as adults, not always, but folks who have developed problems, is that they're acting out in ways as adults that are really offensive, right? And make me say some version, like they're coming in and saying, oh, you went to this school, not that school. And I'm like, that's so gross, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I can see validity and validity on both sides.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I can see validity and validity on both sides.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I can see validity and validity on both sides.

So they're doing things that attract a lot of negative attention. And so what I have to do is pull back and look at what's valid in their experiences. And when you do that, for someone who's been chronically invalidated, the reaction is like, first it's disarming, then it is...

So they're doing things that attract a lot of negative attention. And so what I have to do is pull back and look at what's valid in their experiences. And when you do that, for someone who's been chronically invalidated, the reaction is like, first it's disarming, then it is...

So they're doing things that attract a lot of negative attention. And so what I have to do is pull back and look at what's valid in their experiences. And when you do that, for someone who's been chronically invalidated, the reaction is like, first it's disarming, then it is...

There's like an immediate transformation that doesn't change everything, not by any means, but there's this sense of like, holy shit, wait a minute, what I've been feeling is okay, is right? Like I should have been feeling that? I mean, they kind of knew it all the time, but to have somebody else come in and say, no, that makes perfect sense.

There's like an immediate transformation that doesn't change everything, not by any means, but there's this sense of like, holy shit, wait a minute, what I've been feeling is okay, is right? Like I should have been feeling that? I mean, they kind of knew it all the time, but to have somebody else come in and say, no, that makes perfect sense.

There's like an immediate transformation that doesn't change everything, not by any means, but there's this sense of like, holy shit, wait a minute, what I've been feeling is okay, is right? Like I should have been feeling that? I mean, they kind of knew it all the time, but to have somebody else come in and say, no, that makes perfect sense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like I totally understand why you want to do X, Y, or Z in this situation. I totally understand why you're upset or not upset in this situation. It's just not a message they're used to getting. And so it starts to, the wheels start turning and you can almost see it in real time of like what else have I been discrediting in my own experience? Like how far back does this go?

Like I totally understand why you want to do X, Y, or Z in this situation. I totally understand why you're upset or not upset in this situation. It's just not a message they're used to getting. And so it starts to, the wheels start turning and you can almost see it in real time of like what else have I been discrediting in my own experience? Like how far back does this go?

Like I totally understand why you want to do X, Y, or Z in this situation. I totally understand why you're upset or not upset in this situation. It's just not a message they're used to getting. And so it starts to, the wheels start turning and you can almost see it in real time of like what else have I been discrediting in my own experience? Like how far back does this go?

I hope so. Yeah.

I hope so. Yeah.

I hope so. Yeah.

And that's when the work starts.

And that's when the work starts.

And that's when the work starts.

Oh my gosh, yes. So this is... We make this big divide between self and other. And in my experience, folks who treat others poorly don't treat themselves well either. Like the really critical folks, they're not like lavishing themselves with like, good job, buddy. Oh, you did a great job at your speech this morning. No, they're like highly self-critical.

Oh my gosh, yes. So this is... We make this big divide between self and other. And in my experience, folks who treat others poorly don't treat themselves well either. Like the really critical folks, they're not like lavishing themselves with like, good job, buddy. Oh, you did a great job at your speech this morning. No, they're like highly self-critical.

Oh my gosh, yes. So this is... We make this big divide between self and other. And in my experience, folks who treat others poorly don't treat themselves well either. Like the really critical folks, they're not like lavishing themselves with like, good job, buddy. Oh, you did a great job at your speech this morning. No, they're like highly self-critical.

So we treat others in some way, shape, or form the way we treat ourselves and vice versa.

So we treat others in some way, shape, or form the way we treat ourselves and vice versa.

So we treat others in some way, shape, or form the way we treat ourselves and vice versa.

Yeah. Yeah. You're not. You're not a happy person. In my experience, I don't know many people who are active assholes who are deeply happy. Yeah. The two things just don't go together.

Yeah. Yeah. You're not. You're not a happy person. In my experience, I don't know many people who are active assholes who are deeply happy. Yeah. The two things just don't go together.

Yeah. Yeah. You're not. You're not a happy person. In my experience, I don't know many people who are active assholes who are deeply happy. Yeah. The two things just don't go together.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that is what we were describing with like that that cycle of invalidation, everything else. Right. That's why I'm saying you got to intervene on the victim or the perpetrator. Everyone's hurting here. OK. So, yeah. Sorry. What was the initial question? I totally lost my train.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that is what we were describing with like that that cycle of invalidation, everything else. Right. That's why I'm saying you got to intervene on the victim or the perpetrator. Everyone's hurting here. OK. So, yeah. Sorry. What was the initial question? I totally lost my train.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that is what we were describing with like that that cycle of invalidation, everything else. Right. That's why I'm saying you got to intervene on the victim or the perpetrator. Everyone's hurting here. OK. So, yeah. Sorry. What was the initial question? I totally lost my train.

Oh, yeah. Self-compassion. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Self-compassion. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Self-compassion. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's it's really this quality of like, I feel accepted. OK, so As human beings, we are different from other animals, not so much in our need for affiliation, but in our need for acceptance. We are seeking acceptance. And when we feel that, it is a powerful experience. And then it's often conveyed in these terms of like, oh, I feel so seen. I feel so hurt.

Yeah, it's it's really this quality of like, I feel accepted. OK, so As human beings, we are different from other animals, not so much in our need for affiliation, but in our need for acceptance. We are seeking acceptance. And when we feel that, it is a powerful experience. And then it's often conveyed in these terms of like, oh, I feel so seen. I feel so hurt.

Yeah, it's it's really this quality of like, I feel accepted. OK, so As human beings, we are different from other animals, not so much in our need for affiliation, but in our need for acceptance. We are seeking acceptance. And when we feel that, it is a powerful experience. And then it's often conveyed in these terms of like, oh, I feel so seen. I feel so hurt.

something that's just isolated to this person and this waiter. That is that person's perspective. Now, the issue with self-validation is that, unfortunately, we are a culture of change. We like to problem solve, especially as parents.

something that's just isolated to this person and this waiter. That is that person's perspective. Now, the issue with self-validation is that, unfortunately, we are a culture of change. We like to problem solve, especially as parents.

something that's just isolated to this person and this waiter. That is that person's perspective. Now, the issue with self-validation is that, unfortunately, we are a culture of change. We like to problem solve, especially as parents.

We want to protect our kids so much that we're quick to solve their problems and focus on change and not maybe validate that they're disappointed that they failed their little spelling test. So it's not modeled for us. We don't learn how to validate our emotions. We learn how to problem solve our behavior. All right. And so then as adults, we don't model that for our children.

We want to protect our kids so much that we're quick to solve their problems and focus on change and not maybe validate that they're disappointed that they failed their little spelling test. So it's not modeled for us. We don't learn how to validate our emotions. We learn how to problem solve our behavior. All right. And so then as adults, we don't model that for our children.

We want to protect our kids so much that we're quick to solve their problems and focus on change and not maybe validate that they're disappointed that they failed their little spelling test. So it's not modeled for us. We don't learn how to validate our emotions. We learn how to problem solve our behavior. All right. And so then as adults, we don't model that for our children.

They don't learn how to do that. I have yet to meet a person, be it someone that I work with as an executive coach, somebody in the corporate space, or a patient who is really good at self-validation. Okay, it just, it's very rare. And so we teach these skills in order to validate others. And then as a therapist, we talk a lot about how do you turn that inward?

They don't learn how to do that. I have yet to meet a person, be it someone that I work with as an executive coach, somebody in the corporate space, or a patient who is really good at self-validation. Okay, it just, it's very rare. And so we teach these skills in order to validate others. And then as a therapist, we talk a lot about how do you turn that inward?

They don't learn how to do that. I have yet to meet a person, be it someone that I work with as an executive coach, somebody in the corporate space, or a patient who is really good at self-validation. Okay, it just, it's very rare. And so we teach these skills in order to validate others. And then as a therapist, we talk a lot about how do you turn that inward?

Because that's ultimately what I have to have folks do, right? Part of why I'm validating these, my clients, these folks who come from these, you know, horrible experiences is so that they can learn to do the same for themselves. So I validate them and say, hey, yep, that's valid. Now, here's how you do that for yourself.

Because that's ultimately what I have to have folks do, right? Part of why I'm validating these, my clients, these folks who come from these, you know, horrible experiences is so that they can learn to do the same for themselves. So I validate them and say, hey, yep, that's valid. Now, here's how you do that for yourself.

Because that's ultimately what I have to have folks do, right? Part of why I'm validating these, my clients, these folks who come from these, you know, horrible experiences is so that they can learn to do the same for themselves. So I validate them and say, hey, yep, that's valid. Now, here's how you do that for yourself.

So when you're lying in bed, or frankly, when I'm lying in bed and I'm sitting there and I'm seeing, oh, my gosh, I feel really anxious about tomorrow. Okay. I immediately start to look for what's the validity. I am... I'm in LA, which is not where I normally live. I'm sleeping in a bed that's not mine. I have to get up tomorrow and do an interview. And I'm worried about how that's going to go.

So when you're lying in bed, or frankly, when I'm lying in bed and I'm sitting there and I'm seeing, oh, my gosh, I feel really anxious about tomorrow. Okay. I immediately start to look for what's the validity. I am... I'm in LA, which is not where I normally live. I'm sleeping in a bed that's not mine. I have to get up tomorrow and do an interview. And I'm worried about how that's going to go.

So when you're lying in bed, or frankly, when I'm lying in bed and I'm sitting there and I'm seeing, oh, my gosh, I feel really anxious about tomorrow. Okay. I immediately start to look for what's the validity. I am... I'm in LA, which is not where I normally live. I'm sleeping in a bed that's not mine. I have to get up tomorrow and do an interview. And I'm worried about how that's going to go.

I'm looking for all of the valid reasons why I'm feeling what I'm feeling. And I do not do the, you're such a wuss. Like, what's wrong with you? Nobody else would be feeling this. Everybody else would be so excited to be in your position. What's wrong with you? So I've learned to challenge that script. but it takes active intention and frankly, skills. You gotta know how to do it.

I'm looking for all of the valid reasons why I'm feeling what I'm feeling. And I do not do the, you're such a wuss. Like, what's wrong with you? Nobody else would be feeling this. Everybody else would be so excited to be in your position. What's wrong with you? So I've learned to challenge that script. but it takes active intention and frankly, skills. You gotta know how to do it.

I'm looking for all of the valid reasons why I'm feeling what I'm feeling. And I do not do the, you're such a wuss. Like, what's wrong with you? Nobody else would be feeling this. Everybody else would be so excited to be in your position. What's wrong with you? So I've learned to challenge that script. but it takes active intention and frankly, skills. You gotta know how to do it.

There's always space for focusing on what you need to do differently, what you could behaviorally change. I don't think you can tough love your way out of your emotions. I think it is a huge mistake to think that you can just bully yourself out of feeling sad, anxious, down, depressed. It just doesn't work. We know that. It compounds negativity.

There's always space for focusing on what you need to do differently, what you could behaviorally change. I don't think you can tough love your way out of your emotions. I think it is a huge mistake to think that you can just bully yourself out of feeling sad, anxious, down, depressed. It just doesn't work. We know that. It compounds negativity.

There's always space for focusing on what you need to do differently, what you could behaviorally change. I don't think you can tough love your way out of your emotions. I think it is a huge mistake to think that you can just bully yourself out of feeling sad, anxious, down, depressed. It just doesn't work. We know that. It compounds negativity.

So while I think there's a time and space to say, you know what? Yes, I'm depressed. But if I stay in my bed another day for 12 hours straight, I'm not going to feel better. I need to do something different. Yeah, I believe in that. I also believe in validating all of the reasons why you got to that place. All right.

So while I think there's a time and space to say, you know what? Yes, I'm depressed. But if I stay in my bed another day for 12 hours straight, I'm not going to feel better. I need to do something different. Yeah, I believe in that. I also believe in validating all of the reasons why you got to that place. All right.

So while I think there's a time and space to say, you know what? Yes, I'm depressed. But if I stay in my bed another day for 12 hours straight, I'm not going to feel better. I need to do something different. Yeah, I believe in that. I also believe in validating all of the reasons why you got to that place. All right.

And believe me, doing that first step, doing that emotional validation makes the change easier. It's just not something we've been taught to believe. We've been told kind of the opposite. Right. We've got to do this tough love, tough approach. And it's not an either or, it can be both and. It's acceptance and change. The two go hand in hand.

And believe me, doing that first step, doing that emotional validation makes the change easier. It's just not something we've been taught to believe. We've been told kind of the opposite. Right. We've got to do this tough love, tough approach. And it's not an either or, it can be both and. It's acceptance and change. The two go hand in hand.

And believe me, doing that first step, doing that emotional validation makes the change easier. It's just not something we've been taught to believe. We've been told kind of the opposite. Right. We've got to do this tough love, tough approach. And it's not an either or, it can be both and. It's acceptance and change. The two go hand in hand.

Well, now let me ask, does it need the lazy fuck part? Like you've done it all these years and that's the assumption. If you took the approach of, okay, you worked 12 hours straight, you haven't slept in three days, All right. You are exhausted. There's a valid reason you don't want to go to the gym. I get it. Okay. And it will 100% make you feel better.

Well, now let me ask, does it need the lazy fuck part? Like you've done it all these years and that's the assumption. If you took the approach of, okay, you worked 12 hours straight, you haven't slept in three days, All right. You are exhausted. There's a valid reason you don't want to go to the gym. I get it. Okay. And it will 100% make you feel better.

Well, now let me ask, does it need the lazy fuck part? Like you've done it all these years and that's the assumption. If you took the approach of, okay, you worked 12 hours straight, you haven't slept in three days, All right. You are exhausted. There's a valid reason you don't want to go to the gym. I get it. Okay. And it will 100% make you feel better.

And like, I care about you enough to push you to do that. Like, that is how I talk to my clients, right? Like, and that is the voice I want in your head. Not this like, you lazy fuck, get up. Like that's not how I would talk to someone. That's not how I would talk to a client that I was trying to like help change because it doesn't work right now. It's just for us.

And like, I care about you enough to push you to do that. Like, that is how I talk to my clients, right? Like, and that is the voice I want in your head. Not this like, you lazy fuck, get up. Like that's not how I would talk to someone. That's not how I would talk to a client that I was trying to like help change because it doesn't work right now. It's just for us.

And like, I care about you enough to push you to do that. Like, that is how I talk to my clients, right? Like, and that is the voice I want in your head. Not this like, you lazy fuck, get up. Like that's not how I would talk to someone. That's not how I would talk to a client that I was trying to like help change because it doesn't work right now. It's just for us.

I feel like someone is looking at me and accepting who I am. And I'll, again, differentiate this from praise. That's different from me giving you a heart emoji on Instagram, which is a form of praise. It says, I like how you look, girl. I like how you perform. Which is fine. If you build your whole life around trying to get as much praise as possible, that's not going to fly well for you. Okay.

I feel like someone is looking at me and accepting who I am. And I'll, again, differentiate this from praise. That's different from me giving you a heart emoji on Instagram, which is a form of praise. It says, I like how you look, girl. I like how you perform. Which is fine. If you build your whole life around trying to get as much praise as possible, that's not going to fly well for you. Okay.

I feel like someone is looking at me and accepting who I am. And I'll, again, differentiate this from praise. That's different from me giving you a heart emoji on Instagram, which is a form of praise. It says, I like how you look, girl. I like how you perform. Which is fine. If you build your whole life around trying to get as much praise as possible, that's not going to fly well for you. Okay.

We've gotten so used to that negative self-talk to being the self-abuser that we don't even see it as abuse. But Max, there's another way.

We've gotten so used to that negative self-talk to being the self-abuser that we don't even see it as abuse. But Max, there's another way.

We've gotten so used to that negative self-talk to being the self-abuser that we don't even see it as abuse. But Max, there's another way.

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.

Yeah, yeah. And yet, I know there are people listening right now who do actually feel the, I'm a lazy fuck. And if I don't keep telling myself that, I will just become...

Yeah, yeah. And yet, I know there are people listening right now who do actually feel the, I'm a lazy fuck. And if I don't keep telling myself that, I will just become...

Yeah, yeah. And yet, I know there are people listening right now who do actually feel the, I'm a lazy fuck. And if I don't keep telling myself that, I will just become...

Yeah, I mean, you want to be you want to be the type of person that you would want to be around. You know, there's this really interesting distinction in my head between like loneliness and solitude. And I think if you are kind to yourself, the times when you're alone become opportunities for solitude rather than like that deep, lonely, I need someone else. I need to be with somebody else.

Yeah, I mean, you want to be you want to be the type of person that you would want to be around. You know, there's this really interesting distinction in my head between like loneliness and solitude. And I think if you are kind to yourself, the times when you're alone become opportunities for solitude rather than like that deep, lonely, I need someone else. I need to be with somebody else.

Yeah, I mean, you want to be you want to be the type of person that you would want to be around. You know, there's this really interesting distinction in my head between like loneliness and solitude. And I think if you are kind to yourself, the times when you're alone become opportunities for solitude rather than like that deep, lonely, I need someone else. I need to be with somebody else.

I like need to escape myself to feel comfortable, to feel safe.

I like need to escape myself to feel comfortable, to feel safe.

I like need to escape myself to feel comfortable, to feel safe.

I would say if you are in a situation with someone where you feel like you have tried everything and it's just not changing, you're just not able to get through or the relationship is deteriorating in some way, try validation. It's going to feel really counterintuitive, but just try to look for the validity in some part of the other person's experience.

I would say if you are in a situation with someone where you feel like you have tried everything and it's just not changing, you're just not able to get through or the relationship is deteriorating in some way, try validation. It's going to feel really counterintuitive, but just try to look for the validity in some part of the other person's experience.

I would say if you are in a situation with someone where you feel like you have tried everything and it's just not changing, you're just not able to get through or the relationship is deteriorating in some way, try validation. It's going to feel really counterintuitive, but just try to look for the validity in some part of the other person's experience.

You don't have to validate the entirety of it. It could just be their emotions, could just be their thoughts, or it could be their behavior. Just pick one thing that makes sense to you and convey that.

You don't have to validate the entirety of it. It could just be their emotions, could just be their thoughts, or it could be their behavior. Just pick one thing that makes sense to you and convey that.

You don't have to validate the entirety of it. It could just be their emotions, could just be their thoughts, or it could be their behavior. Just pick one thing that makes sense to you and convey that.

But I can see the validity in it. Okay. So that's probably my... Even as a clinician, when I'm feeling stuck with someone, like we're just not making any progress, I often need to go back. I haven't sufficiently validated them. Once I've sufficiently validated them, then we can move on to change. So that would be with regard to others.

But I can see the validity in it. Okay. So that's probably my... Even as a clinician, when I'm feeling stuck with someone, like we're just not making any progress, I often need to go back. I haven't sufficiently validated them. Once I've sufficiently validated them, then we can move on to change. So that would be with regard to others.

But I can see the validity in it. Okay. So that's probably my... Even as a clinician, when I'm feeling stuck with someone, like we're just not making any progress, I often need to go back. I haven't sufficiently validated them. Once I've sufficiently validated them, then we can move on to change. So that would be with regard to others.

If you're in a relationship in which you're feeling, again, as we described earlier, like really kind of lonely, one thing to consider is... whether or not, one, you've been vulnerable, and if you have, two, if it has felt safe, if you have felt accepted in those moments or not. And if not...

If you're in a relationship in which you're feeling, again, as we described earlier, like really kind of lonely, one thing to consider is... whether or not, one, you've been vulnerable, and if you have, two, if it has felt safe, if you have felt accepted in those moments or not. And if not...

If you're in a relationship in which you're feeling, again, as we described earlier, like really kind of lonely, one thing to consider is... whether or not, one, you've been vulnerable, and if you have, two, if it has felt safe, if you have felt accepted in those moments or not. And if not...

I wanna live in a world, I mean, my purpose for writing this book is that I wanna live in a world where we can say to each other like, hey, I need some more validation.

I wanna live in a world, I mean, my purpose for writing this book is that I wanna live in a world where we can say to each other like, hey, I need some more validation.

I wanna live in a world, I mean, my purpose for writing this book is that I wanna live in a world where we can say to each other like, hey, I need some more validation.

In my house, that is just like the language we use because every single person, when someone comes to them with a problem or an issue or they feel bad, our inclination is to problem solve, like jump in with what they could do differently. You got to just tell your manager that he can't talk to you like that. That's just where we go.

In my house, that is just like the language we use because every single person, when someone comes to them with a problem or an issue or they feel bad, our inclination is to problem solve, like jump in with what they could do differently. You got to just tell your manager that he can't talk to you like that. That's just where we go.

In my house, that is just like the language we use because every single person, when someone comes to them with a problem or an issue or they feel bad, our inclination is to problem solve, like jump in with what they could do differently. You got to just tell your manager that he can't talk to you like that. That's just where we go.

And nine times out of 10, when people come to us with something, they're just seeking validation. They just want to know that they're not crazy. So that's what you need to provide. And yet... We don't do that. We attend to what we think we can fix. That's how we were raised. That's the culture we were brought up in.

And nine times out of 10, when people come to us with something, they're just seeking validation. They just want to know that they're not crazy. So that's what you need to provide. And yet... We don't do that. We attend to what we think we can fix. That's how we were raised. That's the culture we were brought up in.

And nine times out of 10, when people come to us with something, they're just seeking validation. They just want to know that they're not crazy. So that's what you need to provide. And yet... We don't do that. We attend to what we think we can fix. That's how we were raised. That's the culture we were brought up in.

So in those moments, if the other person can say, actually, I'm just seeking validation right now, it should be like a gear shift. So I'm a psychologist. My poor husband has to deal with living with a psychologist who, I know this sounds like, yeah, I'd be really good at validation. But I'm also like, oh, I see all the things that you should change. Like, mm, you're not thinking about that right.

So in those moments, if the other person can say, actually, I'm just seeking validation right now, it should be like a gear shift. So I'm a psychologist. My poor husband has to deal with living with a psychologist who, I know this sounds like, yeah, I'd be really good at validation. But I'm also like, oh, I see all the things that you should change. Like, mm, you're not thinking about that right.

So in those moments, if the other person can say, actually, I'm just seeking validation right now, it should be like a gear shift. So I'm a psychologist. My poor husband has to deal with living with a psychologist who, I know this sounds like, yeah, I'd be really good at validation. But I'm also like, oh, I see all the things that you should change. Like, mm, you're not thinking about that right.

Which is why we say don't seek external validation. We really mean don't seek excessive praise. But seeking acceptance is a very different thing. And in fact, it's a very human thing. It is critical to our mental health and in some cases, truly our survival.

Which is why we say don't seek external validation. We really mean don't seek excessive praise. But seeking acceptance is a very different thing. And in fact, it's a very human thing. It is critical to our mental health and in some cases, truly our survival.

Which is why we say don't seek external validation. We really mean don't seek excessive praise. But seeking acceptance is a very different thing. And in fact, it's a very human thing. It is critical to our mental health and in some cases, truly our survival.

Or like, mm, that's not quite right. And he'll often say like, OK, thanks. I just need validation. And that isn't offensive to me. I'm not I don't feel like he's criticizing me. It's just like, oh, shoot. I was like aiming at the wrong thing. Right. Like I need to like, OK, the dartboard boards over in the other direction.

Or like, mm, that's not quite right. And he'll often say like, OK, thanks. I just need validation. And that isn't offensive to me. I'm not I don't feel like he's criticizing me. It's just like, oh, shoot. I was like aiming at the wrong thing. Right. Like I need to like, OK, the dartboard boards over in the other direction.

Or like, mm, that's not quite right. And he'll often say like, OK, thanks. I just need validation. And that isn't offensive to me. I'm not I don't feel like he's criticizing me. It's just like, oh, shoot. I was like aiming at the wrong thing. Right. Like I need to like, OK, the dartboard boards over in the other direction.

And my daughter, like all the time, I'll say to her, do you want to do you want validation or problem solving? Like, mom, I didn't get into I don't like the camp that I'm in. I hate it. All right, do you want validation or problem solving? She says validation, then I'll go down that road. If she wants problem solving, then I'll say, OK, well, have you tried this? What about that? What about this?

And my daughter, like all the time, I'll say to her, do you want to do you want validation or problem solving? Like, mom, I didn't get into I don't like the camp that I'm in. I hate it. All right, do you want validation or problem solving? She says validation, then I'll go down that road. If she wants problem solving, then I'll say, OK, well, have you tried this? What about that? What about this?

And my daughter, like all the time, I'll say to her, do you want to do you want validation or problem solving? Like, mom, I didn't get into I don't like the camp that I'm in. I hate it. All right, do you want validation or problem solving? She says validation, then I'll go down that road. If she wants problem solving, then I'll say, OK, well, have you tried this? What about that? What about this?

And then if she starts giving me, yeah, but that doesn't work because of this and that, then I know she actually needs validation.

And then if she starts giving me, yeah, but that doesn't work because of this and that, then I know she actually needs validation.

And then if she starts giving me, yeah, but that doesn't work because of this and that, then I know she actually needs validation.

Yeah, I think there definitely can be. I think as parents, we're often equal offenders, although just women tend to pivot more quickly. They can see it, but they'll also often open with problem solving. The really interesting thing that I have found in my practice, so there's an emotional intelligence quality to some of this that you've hit at.

Yeah, I think there definitely can be. I think as parents, we're often equal offenders, although just women tend to pivot more quickly. They can see it, but they'll also often open with problem solving. The really interesting thing that I have found in my practice, so there's an emotional intelligence quality to some of this that you've hit at.

Yeah, I think there definitely can be. I think as parents, we're often equal offenders, although just women tend to pivot more quickly. They can see it, but they'll also often open with problem solving. The really interesting thing that I have found in my practice, so there's an emotional intelligence quality to some of this that you've hit at.

The higher your EQ, presumably the easier this would be. And that is and it isn't true. So oftentimes, I'll have couples come to me wanting couples therapy. And again, if it's a very stereotypical, perhaps more patriarchal relationship, the woman presents as more emotionally intelligent. And the male partner is just like, all right, well, this is what we need to fix.

The higher your EQ, presumably the easier this would be. And that is and it isn't true. So oftentimes, I'll have couples come to me wanting couples therapy. And again, if it's a very stereotypical, perhaps more patriarchal relationship, the woman presents as more emotionally intelligent. And the male partner is just like, all right, well, this is what we need to fix.

The higher your EQ, presumably the easier this would be. And that is and it isn't true. So oftentimes, I'll have couples come to me wanting couples therapy. And again, if it's a very stereotypical, perhaps more patriarchal relationship, the woman presents as more emotionally intelligent. And the male partner is just like, all right, well, this is what we need to fix.

And how long is this going to be? And what's your fee? When I start teaching them validation, though, The person who is more emotionally intelligent is like, yeah, no, I got this. Yeah, this makes perfect sense to me. And so they don't pay attention as much, take notes, and then practice. Their partner, however, if this isn't coming naturally, they do tend to try harder at it.

And how long is this going to be? And what's your fee? When I start teaching them validation, though, The person who is more emotionally intelligent is like, yeah, no, I got this. Yeah, this makes perfect sense to me. And so they don't pay attention as much, take notes, and then practice. Their partner, however, if this isn't coming naturally, they do tend to try harder at it.

And how long is this going to be? And what's your fee? When I start teaching them validation, though, The person who is more emotionally intelligent is like, yeah, no, I got this. Yeah, this makes perfect sense to me. And so they don't pay attention as much, take notes, and then practice. Their partner, however, if this isn't coming naturally, they do tend to try harder at it.

And at the end of, say, 12 weeks, the better validator tends to be the person who worked harder at it, more so than the person with a high EQ, which is really interesting. Just because you're sensitive, that doesn't mean that you're equally skilled at communicating that sensitivity in a way that resonates. And that's what these skills do. We've narrowed this down. This is a science.

And at the end of, say, 12 weeks, the better validator tends to be the person who worked harder at it, more so than the person with a high EQ, which is really interesting. Just because you're sensitive, that doesn't mean that you're equally skilled at communicating that sensitivity in a way that resonates. And that's what these skills do. We've narrowed this down. This is a science.

And at the end of, say, 12 weeks, the better validator tends to be the person who worked harder at it, more so than the person with a high EQ, which is really interesting. Just because you're sensitive, that doesn't mean that you're equally skilled at communicating that sensitivity in a way that resonates. And that's what these skills do. We've narrowed this down. This is a science.

We know how to convey that message really effectively. And again, just because you're emotionally intelligent doesn't mean that you've dialed that in. And so interestingly enough, yeah, I think it doesn't really matter how kind of problem-solving centric you are so long as you make... Now, if both partners were to try equally hard, yeah, the EQ person's going to come out on top. They will.

We know how to convey that message really effectively. And again, just because you're emotionally intelligent doesn't mean that you've dialed that in. And so interestingly enough, yeah, I think it doesn't really matter how kind of problem-solving centric you are so long as you make... Now, if both partners were to try equally hard, yeah, the EQ person's going to come out on top. They will.

We know how to convey that message really effectively. And again, just because you're emotionally intelligent doesn't mean that you've dialed that in. And so interestingly enough, yeah, I think it doesn't really matter how kind of problem-solving centric you are so long as you make... Now, if both partners were to try equally hard, yeah, the EQ person's going to come out on top. They will.

They just don't tend to invest in the same way.

They just don't tend to invest in the same way.

They just don't tend to invest in the same way.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

So if you'd worked with me, what I would have said to you and taught you and what you would have internalized after me drilling it in over and over again, is that you need to ask yourself one question. Is this an opportunity for problem solving or validation? Should I respond with problem solving or validation?

So if you'd worked with me, what I would have said to you and taught you and what you would have internalized after me drilling it in over and over again, is that you need to ask yourself one question. Is this an opportunity for problem solving or validation? Should I respond with problem solving or validation?

So if you'd worked with me, what I would have said to you and taught you and what you would have internalized after me drilling it in over and over again, is that you need to ask yourself one question. Is this an opportunity for problem solving or validation? Should I respond with problem solving or validation?

If you're not asking yourself that question and you're just shooting from the hip, you're usually going to get it wrong because you're usually going to problem solve.

If you're not asking yourself that question and you're just shooting from the hip, you're usually going to get it wrong because you're usually going to problem solve.

If you're not asking yourself that question and you're just shooting from the hip, you're usually going to get it wrong because you're usually going to problem solve.

Yeah. And so this is and this isn't just in romantic relationships like this applies even at work, right, where it seems like problem solving should be the name of the game. Oh, such a mistake. Ask yourself, is this person seeking validation or do they actually need help here? All right? You can open with validation and then problem solve. There's nothing to say that you can't do both.

Yeah. And so this is and this isn't just in romantic relationships like this applies even at work, right, where it seems like problem solving should be the name of the game. Oh, such a mistake. Ask yourself, is this person seeking validation or do they actually need help here? All right? You can open with validation and then problem solve. There's nothing to say that you can't do both.

Yeah. And so this is and this isn't just in romantic relationships like this applies even at work, right, where it seems like problem solving should be the name of the game. Oh, such a mistake. Ask yourself, is this person seeking validation or do they actually need help here? All right? You can open with validation and then problem solve. There's nothing to say that you can't do both.

I mean, in this country, our most extreme form of punishment is isolation. So as human beings, we will seek out negative attention over no attention, okay? It is just so detrimental.

I mean, in this country, our most extreme form of punishment is isolation. So as human beings, we will seek out negative attention over no attention, okay? It is just so detrimental.

I mean, in this country, our most extreme form of punishment is isolation. So as human beings, we will seek out negative attention over no attention, okay? It is just so detrimental.

It's just in any one moment, you can only respond with one or the other. All right? And if all else fails, if you, in that moment, shoot from the hip and do the problem solving thing and she responds poorly, then that's your cue to validate. So although this is what I mean in that it is just kind of these are these strategies you kind of learn. To ask yourself and operate off of.

It's just in any one moment, you can only respond with one or the other. All right? And if all else fails, if you, in that moment, shoot from the hip and do the problem solving thing and she responds poorly, then that's your cue to validate. So although this is what I mean in that it is just kind of these are these strategies you kind of learn. To ask yourself and operate off of.

It's just in any one moment, you can only respond with one or the other. All right? And if all else fails, if you, in that moment, shoot from the hip and do the problem solving thing and she responds poorly, then that's your cue to validate. So although this is what I mean in that it is just kind of these are these strategies you kind of learn. To ask yourself and operate off of.

It's almost like an algorithm. Like it's pretty easy to kind of internalize with enough repetition.

It's almost like an algorithm. Like it's pretty easy to kind of internalize with enough repetition.

It's almost like an algorithm. Like it's pretty easy to kind of internalize with enough repetition.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, so when you're applying for grad school in psychology, you're supposed to talk all about like, you know, why do you want to be a clinical psychologist? And everyone talks about their like deep research interests and all of that. And I did too. And that was all bullshit.

Yeah, so when you're applying for grad school in psychology, you're supposed to talk all about like, you know, why do you want to be a clinical psychologist? And everyone talks about their like deep research interests and all of that. And I did too. And that was all bullshit.

Yeah, so when you're applying for grad school in psychology, you're supposed to talk all about like, you know, why do you want to be a clinical psychologist? And everyone talks about their like deep research interests and all of that. And I did too. And that was all bullshit.

Because the reason I went into clinical psychology is because I struggled with major depressive disorder from the time that I was 15 until about 26, 27. And it was hell. It was absolute hell. And in retrospect, I realized that so many of the experiences I had with therapists and mental health providers at that time were deeply invalidating. Like it did not feel helpful. It felt harmful.

Because the reason I went into clinical psychology is because I struggled with major depressive disorder from the time that I was 15 until about 26, 27. And it was hell. It was absolute hell. And in retrospect, I realized that so many of the experiences I had with therapists and mental health providers at that time were deeply invalidating. Like it did not feel helpful. It felt harmful.

Because the reason I went into clinical psychology is because I struggled with major depressive disorder from the time that I was 15 until about 26, 27. And it was hell. It was absolute hell. And in retrospect, I realized that so many of the experiences I had with therapists and mental health providers at that time were deeply invalidating. Like it did not feel helpful. It felt harmful.

I felt pathologized. I felt like I was treated like a patient, not a person. And not even like a medical patient, right? With like a broken arm or something, but like this broken person, right? And I wanted to be the type of therapist I didn't have. That was my motivation.

I felt pathologized. I felt like I was treated like a patient, not a person. And not even like a medical patient, right? With like a broken arm or something, but like this broken person, right? And I wanted to be the type of therapist I didn't have. That was my motivation.

I felt pathologized. I felt like I was treated like a patient, not a person. And not even like a medical patient, right? With like a broken arm or something, but like this broken person, right? And I wanted to be the type of therapist I didn't have. That was my motivation.

That and low key, I wanted to see if I could figure out how to treat depression and maybe come up with a treatment that would help me. So that was my true kind of motivation there. And again, when I look at it back through this lens, I realized that what I was experiencing was just pervasive invalidation. and I was hoping to provide experiences that were more validating.

That and low key, I wanted to see if I could figure out how to treat depression and maybe come up with a treatment that would help me. So that was my true kind of motivation there. And again, when I look at it back through this lens, I realized that what I was experiencing was just pervasive invalidation. and I was hoping to provide experiences that were more validating.

That and low key, I wanted to see if I could figure out how to treat depression and maybe come up with a treatment that would help me. So that was my true kind of motivation there. And again, when I look at it back through this lens, I realized that what I was experiencing was just pervasive invalidation. and I was hoping to provide experiences that were more validating.

And so I open with that a lot. I use that information in session. I share with people that there was a time in my life when I was suicidal. I know exactly what that feels like. I don't know what it is that got you here, but I know that level of desperation and it fucking sucks. And I'm so goddamn sorry. And it's this is the hardest thing. I've had breast cancer. I have MS.

And so I open with that a lot. I use that information in session. I share with people that there was a time in my life when I was suicidal. I know exactly what that feels like. I don't know what it is that got you here, but I know that level of desperation and it fucking sucks. And I'm so goddamn sorry. And it's this is the hardest thing. I've had breast cancer. I have MS.

And so I open with that a lot. I use that information in session. I share with people that there was a time in my life when I was suicidal. I know exactly what that feels like. I don't know what it is that got you here, but I know that level of desperation and it fucking sucks. And I'm so goddamn sorry. And it's this is the hardest thing. I've had breast cancer. I have MS.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Depression trumps those hands down. OK, that's a pretty big statement about how just profound that suffering is. And if I can communicate that, if I can connect with people in that way. There is a high level of validation that's communicated. I get it. I see you. I don't blame you. I don't think, you know, you're broken. You're just like me.

Depression trumps those hands down. OK, that's a pretty big statement about how just profound that suffering is. And if I can communicate that, if I can connect with people in that way. There is a high level of validation that's communicated. I get it. I see you. I don't blame you. I don't think, you know, you're broken. You're just like me.

Depression trumps those hands down. OK, that's a pretty big statement about how just profound that suffering is. And if I can communicate that, if I can connect with people in that way. There is a high level of validation that's communicated. I get it. I see you. I don't blame you. I don't think, you know, you're broken. You're just like me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think health care, big picture, including medical health, has operated under this just horrible model of hierarchy with the doctor above the patient. And I put patient in quotation marks because my training was to refer to folks as the client. More equality in this. There's not like, I'm the doctor, you're the patient. I'm up here, you're down there. That is a disaster.

I think health care, big picture, including medical health, has operated under this just horrible model of hierarchy with the doctor above the patient. And I put patient in quotation marks because my training was to refer to folks as the client. More equality in this. There's not like, I'm the doctor, you're the patient. I'm up here, you're down there. That is a disaster.

I think health care, big picture, including medical health, has operated under this just horrible model of hierarchy with the doctor above the patient. And I put patient in quotation marks because my training was to refer to folks as the client. More equality in this. There's not like, I'm the doctor, you're the patient. I'm up here, you're down there. That is a disaster.

I don't care if it's in treating cancer. which was often my experience. Again, there were all these kind of experts telling me what I should feel and, you know, oh, that doesn't make sense. And then certainly within mental health care, we need to be seen as equals because we are.

I don't care if it's in treating cancer. which was often my experience. Again, there were all these kind of experts telling me what I should feel and, you know, oh, that doesn't make sense. And then certainly within mental health care, we need to be seen as equals because we are.

I don't care if it's in treating cancer. which was often my experience. Again, there were all these kind of experts telling me what I should feel and, you know, oh, that doesn't make sense. And then certainly within mental health care, we need to be seen as equals because we are.

And if someone doesn't feel that sense of, again, acceptance and equality, it's just not going to be healthy for the relationship. And so one, of course, I advocate for that. Two, as a therapist, I actually do believe in the power of self-disclosure, using that as a tool. It is a validation skill. Now, of course, you don't want your clients taking care of you.

And if someone doesn't feel that sense of, again, acceptance and equality, it's just not going to be healthy for the relationship. And so one, of course, I advocate for that. Two, as a therapist, I actually do believe in the power of self-disclosure, using that as a tool. It is a validation skill. Now, of course, you don't want your clients taking care of you.

And if someone doesn't feel that sense of, again, acceptance and equality, it's just not going to be healthy for the relationship. And so one, of course, I advocate for that. Two, as a therapist, I actually do believe in the power of self-disclosure, using that as a tool. It is a validation skill. Now, of course, you don't want your clients taking care of you.

I mean, it's like you have to be very skillful about how you do this. But using self-disclosure to validate, I think is incredibly powerful. In fact, when I was first diagnosed with MS, I was working with this doctor. I just arrived in Seattle after like five years of horrible symptoms, and now it's like, oh, you have MS. And I am just like totally gutted, totally devastated.

I mean, it's like you have to be very skillful about how you do this. But using self-disclosure to validate, I think is incredibly powerful. In fact, when I was first diagnosed with MS, I was working with this doctor. I just arrived in Seattle after like five years of horrible symptoms, and now it's like, oh, you have MS. And I am just like totally gutted, totally devastated.

I mean, it's like you have to be very skillful about how you do this. But using self-disclosure to validate, I think is incredibly powerful. In fact, when I was first diagnosed with MS, I was working with this doctor. I just arrived in Seattle after like five years of horrible symptoms, and now it's like, oh, you have MS. And I am just like totally gutted, totally devastated.

And I was in the middle of an episode, so there was this question of like, oh, should we hospitalize you and do these steroids? I'm crying. And the doctor was in a wheelchair, which I didn't know anything about MS. It was like totally over my head to even consider that he might be in the wheelchair because of MS. And he was. And he reached out his hand. He put his hand on my hand.

And I was in the middle of an episode, so there was this question of like, oh, should we hospitalize you and do these steroids? I'm crying. And the doctor was in a wheelchair, which I didn't know anything about MS. It was like totally over my head to even consider that he might be in the wheelchair because of MS. And he was. And he reached out his hand. He put his hand on my hand.

And I was in the middle of an episode, so there was this question of like, oh, should we hospitalize you and do these steroids? I'm crying. And the doctor was in a wheelchair, which I didn't know anything about MS. It was like totally over my head to even consider that he might be in the wheelchair because of MS. And he was. And he reached out his hand. He put his hand on my hand.

It is.

It is.

It is.

He said, hey, I have MS. I know what this feels like. I know what you're thinking. This is absolutely terrifying. If I were in your shoes, I would do the steroids. I think we should. I would go to the hospital if I were you. Okay. But you don't have to listen to me. You listen to your own body and you do what you need and I'll support that.

He said, hey, I have MS. I know what this feels like. I know what you're thinking. This is absolutely terrifying. If I were in your shoes, I would do the steroids. I think we should. I would go to the hospital if I were you. Okay. But you don't have to listen to me. You listen to your own body and you do what you need and I'll support that.

He said, hey, I have MS. I know what this feels like. I know what you're thinking. This is absolutely terrifying. If I were in your shoes, I would do the steroids. I think we should. I would go to the hospital if I were you. Okay. But you don't have to listen to me. You listen to your own body and you do what you need and I'll support that.

Yeah. Well, so a negative attention is positive attention feels really good. But on that spectrum, I would say acceptance. Now, that's really yummy. Right. So if we were to kind of put these things on a scale because praise and all that, that's a judgment. But it also is contingent upon you meeting or exceeding someone's expectations. All right.

Yeah. Well, so a negative attention is positive attention feels really good. But on that spectrum, I would say acceptance. Now, that's really yummy. Right. So if we were to kind of put these things on a scale because praise and all that, that's a judgment. But it also is contingent upon you meeting or exceeding someone's expectations. All right.

Yeah. Well, so a negative attention is positive attention feels really good. But on that spectrum, I would say acceptance. Now, that's really yummy. Right. So if we were to kind of put these things on a scale because praise and all that, that's a judgment. But it also is contingent upon you meeting or exceeding someone's expectations. All right.

And it just cut through everything, all the other noise, all the other doubt. It just was such a lightning moment of like, boom, I trust this person, they get it. And that's what I'm talking about. Being human should be part of the medical model. We shouldn't be so sterile as though that's helping people. That's not how we heal. We heal through connection.

And it just cut through everything, all the other noise, all the other doubt. It just was such a lightning moment of like, boom, I trust this person, they get it. And that's what I'm talking about. Being human should be part of the medical model. We shouldn't be so sterile as though that's helping people. That's not how we heal. We heal through connection.

And it just cut through everything, all the other noise, all the other doubt. It just was such a lightning moment of like, boom, I trust this person, they get it. And that's what I'm talking about. Being human should be part of the medical model. We shouldn't be so sterile as though that's helping people. That's not how we heal. We heal through connection.

Yeah, man.

Yeah, man.

Yeah, man.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

They do.

They do.

They do.

How old, if you don't mind me asking, how old was she when that happened?

How old, if you don't mind me asking, how old was she when that happened?

How old, if you don't mind me asking, how old was she when that happened?

Oh, Minding Your Mitochondria. Yeah, yeah. I think I actually saw that way back.

Oh, Minding Your Mitochondria. Yeah, yeah. I think I actually saw that way back.

Oh, Minding Your Mitochondria. Yeah, yeah. I think I actually saw that way back.

She has MS and she was like then she went into remission based on the health, the diet changes she made, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

She has MS and she was like then she went into remission based on the health, the diet changes she made, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

She has MS and she was like then she went into remission based on the health, the diet changes she made, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know, man. And that's the line in the sand. Like, oh, it's so hard for me.

I know, man. And that's the line in the sand. Like, oh, it's so hard for me.

I know, man. And that's the line in the sand. Like, oh, it's so hard for me.

I know.

I know.

I know.

I am such an animal lover. And beyond that, I think we've done such a profound... just disservice and abuse to animals that I feel like if, even if it took years off my life, I would, uh, accept that over, um, engaging in a lifestyle that would contribute to any further contribution to it, which is messed. I know that's messed up.

I am such an animal lover. And beyond that, I think we've done such a profound... just disservice and abuse to animals that I feel like if, even if it took years off my life, I would, uh, accept that over, um, engaging in a lifestyle that would contribute to any further contribution to it, which is messed. I know that's messed up.

I am such an animal lover. And beyond that, I think we've done such a profound... just disservice and abuse to animals that I feel like if, even if it took years off my life, I would, uh, accept that over, um, engaging in a lifestyle that would contribute to any further contribution to it, which is messed. I know that's messed up.

Yeah. But it's gonna, it might kill me, but, uh,

Yeah. But it's gonna, it might kill me, but, uh,

Yeah. But it's gonna, it might kill me, but, uh,

No, but it's bad. It's so bad. It's so bad.

No, but it's bad. It's so bad. It's so bad.

No, but it's bad. It's so bad. It's so bad.

So you can get really into like facade making, especially with like social media. You're filtering this. You're filtering that. You're getting all this praise. But it's somewhat empty because it's not you. that the person truly quote unquote likes or appreciates or whatever. It's this version of you that you've created that's being reinforced.

So you can get really into like facade making, especially with like social media. You're filtering this. You're filtering that. You're getting all this praise. But it's somewhat empty because it's not you. that the person truly quote unquote likes or appreciates or whatever. It's this version of you that you've created that's being reinforced.

So you can get really into like facade making, especially with like social media. You're filtering this. You're filtering that. You're getting all this praise. But it's somewhat empty because it's not you. that the person truly quote unquote likes or appreciates or whatever. It's this version of you that you've created that's being reinforced.

I think that is the only, in my opinion, like way to reconcile that cognitive dissonance, right? Like to say that I really care about animals, but I'm going to participate in an industry that systematically abuses and tortures them. That doesn't make sense.

I think that is the only, in my opinion, like way to reconcile that cognitive dissonance, right? Like to say that I really care about animals, but I'm going to participate in an industry that systematically abuses and tortures them. That doesn't make sense.

I think that is the only, in my opinion, like way to reconcile that cognitive dissonance, right? Like to say that I really care about animals, but I'm going to participate in an industry that systematically abuses and tortures them. That doesn't make sense.

Now, if you say I deeply care about animals and therefore I'm going to select and really put my money behind folks who are trying to change that industry, that I can respect. Unfortunately, I often doubt the, actors in the positions of changing it. Like it takes so much research to really know and understand the distribution process and what's going on there.

Now, if you say I deeply care about animals and therefore I'm going to select and really put my money behind folks who are trying to change that industry, that I can respect. Unfortunately, I often doubt the, actors in the positions of changing it. Like it takes so much research to really know and understand the distribution process and what's going on there.

Now, if you say I deeply care about animals and therefore I'm going to select and really put my money behind folks who are trying to change that industry, that I can respect. Unfortunately, I often doubt the, actors in the positions of changing it. Like it takes so much research to really know and understand the distribution process and what's going on there.

And like, if I had those resources, I think I would, I mean, I would, I would probably go that route. Um, I don't. And so the easier route for me is just to say like nothing.

And like, if I had those resources, I think I would, I mean, I would, I would probably go that route. Um, I don't. And so the easier route for me is just to say like nothing.

And like, if I had those resources, I think I would, I mean, I would, I would probably go that route. Um, I don't. And so the easier route for me is just to say like nothing.

I'm just vegetarian. And actually, I love that you asked that because I think this is, we don't reckon with cognitive dissonance very well. We think we've got to go like all black or all white. Like, okay, I care about animals, so it's got to be to this degree, right? Which is kind of what I was just saying. Now, the reality is, like I said, when I tried to go vegan, it like almost killed me.

I'm just vegetarian. And actually, I love that you asked that because I think this is, we don't reckon with cognitive dissonance very well. We think we've got to go like all black or all white. Like, okay, I care about animals, so it's got to be to this degree, right? Which is kind of what I was just saying. Now, the reality is, like I said, when I tried to go vegan, it like almost killed me.

I'm just vegetarian. And actually, I love that you asked that because I think this is, we don't reckon with cognitive dissonance very well. We think we've got to go like all black or all white. Like, okay, I care about animals, so it's got to be to this degree, right? Which is kind of what I was just saying. Now, the reality is, like I said, when I tried to go vegan, it like almost killed me.

Like I wasn't eating. I do not cook, which is embarrassing to admit in front of- tons of people, but it's true. I've tried in the past, but I would have to make such lifestyle changes that I just haven't been able to make and sustain. So I do eat a little bit of dairy products. And I do that with open eyes. I do that with intentional awareness of what that industry looks like.

Like I wasn't eating. I do not cook, which is embarrassing to admit in front of- tons of people, but it's true. I've tried in the past, but I would have to make such lifestyle changes that I just haven't been able to make and sustain. So I do eat a little bit of dairy products. And I do that with open eyes. I do that with intentional awareness of what that industry looks like.

Like I wasn't eating. I do not cook, which is embarrassing to admit in front of- tons of people, but it's true. I've tried in the past, but I would have to make such lifestyle changes that I just haven't been able to make and sustain. So I do eat a little bit of dairy products. And I do that with open eyes. I do that with intentional awareness of what that industry looks like.

And again, as you described, trying to opt into companies that say they're doing better, whatever. But I'm not proud of that fact. And I think that's okay. I think it's something I would work toward and that I want to change. And I know that just right now where I'm at in my life, I'm not there. But that would be the end goal for me.

And again, as you described, trying to opt into companies that say they're doing better, whatever. But I'm not proud of that fact. And I think that's okay. I think it's something I would work toward and that I want to change. And I know that just right now where I'm at in my life, I'm not there. But that would be the end goal for me.

And again, as you described, trying to opt into companies that say they're doing better, whatever. But I'm not proud of that fact. And I think that's okay. I think it's something I would work toward and that I want to change. And I know that just right now where I'm at in my life, I'm not there. But that would be the end goal for me.

It's horrific. Yeah, it is horrific. And not even for animals, but just for the the planet and also the people operating within those industries, which interestingly, I've also had a couple of clients, you know, who worked in factory farms and stuff like that. And it is just it's a devastatingly dark reality to be perpetuating torture to the extent that we do to sustain factory farming.

It's horrific. Yeah, it is horrific. And not even for animals, but just for the the planet and also the people operating within those industries, which interestingly, I've also had a couple of clients, you know, who worked in factory farms and stuff like that. And it is just it's a devastatingly dark reality to be perpetuating torture to the extent that we do to sustain factory farming.

It's horrific. Yeah, it is horrific. And not even for animals, but just for the the planet and also the people operating within those industries, which interestingly, I've also had a couple of clients, you know, who worked in factory farms and stuff like that. And it is just it's a devastatingly dark reality to be perpetuating torture to the extent that we do to sustain factory farming.

And then you're reinforced for distorting more and more. And it's just there's this hollowness. There's this emptiness to that type of connection because it's not you that's accepted. It's not you that's appreciated. It's the version you've created.

And then you're reinforced for distorting more and more. And it's just there's this hollowness. There's this emptiness to that type of connection because it's not you that's accepted. It's not you that's appreciated. It's the version you've created.

And then you're reinforced for distorting more and more. And it's just there's this hollowness. There's this emptiness to that type of connection because it's not you that's accepted. It's not you that's appreciated. It's the version you've created.

Totally. Whichever way you totally agree. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I like I that again is another thing that I aspire to.

Totally. Whichever way you totally agree. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I like I that again is another thing that I aspire to.

Totally. Whichever way you totally agree. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I like I that again is another thing that I aspire to.

Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right, right, right, right. Oh, that's a very good, that's a very good point.

Right, right, right, right. Oh, that's a very good, that's a very good point.

Right, right, right, right. Oh, that's a very good, that's a very good point.

And it's just not how we think about food, especially in our like excess culture of like superset and double this and double that, right? But like, let's think about what we're eating here just for like a hot second. Like, is there a better way to do this? Yeah. But it requires you to acknowledge that you are doing some degree of harm.

And it's just not how we think about food, especially in our like excess culture of like superset and double this and double that, right? But like, let's think about what we're eating here just for like a hot second. Like, is there a better way to do this? Yeah. But it requires you to acknowledge that you are doing some degree of harm.

And it's just not how we think about food, especially in our like excess culture of like superset and double this and double that, right? But like, let's think about what we're eating here just for like a hot second. Like, is there a better way to do this? Yeah. But it requires you to acknowledge that you are doing some degree of harm.

And that's what I was saying where I really actually value being mindful of when what you're saying and what you're doing don't align. You can't just be like, I love animals, and I'm not going to look at that right now while I'm ordering over here. It's like, hold the two simultaneously. That's OK. You don't have to be perfect.

And that's what I was saying where I really actually value being mindful of when what you're saying and what you're doing don't align. You can't just be like, I love animals, and I'm not going to look at that right now while I'm ordering over here. It's like, hold the two simultaneously. That's OK. You don't have to be perfect.

And that's what I was saying where I really actually value being mindful of when what you're saying and what you're doing don't align. You can't just be like, I love animals, and I'm not going to look at that right now while I'm ordering over here. It's like, hold the two simultaneously. That's OK. You don't have to be perfect.

Like you said, I aspire to have a totally plant-based diet, but I'm not there. And yet with every one of those decisions, I am thinking, do I really need cheese on this? If I were in your shoes, like, could I, you know, a cow versus a chicken? Yeah.

Like you said, I aspire to have a totally plant-based diet, but I'm not there. And yet with every one of those decisions, I am thinking, do I really need cheese on this? If I were in your shoes, like, could I, you know, a cow versus a chicken? Yeah.

Like you said, I aspire to have a totally plant-based diet, but I'm not there. And yet with every one of those decisions, I am thinking, do I really need cheese on this? If I were in your shoes, like, could I, you know, a cow versus a chicken? Yeah.

Yeah. And it is it's just about like not being so black or white, like, oh, well, I eat meat. So I eat meat. This is what I do. Like you can there can be all sorts of like, compassionate decisions within that that are more aligned with your values, even though you're making a decision that as a whole, maybe feels, you know, not completely in line.

Yeah. And it is it's just about like not being so black or white, like, oh, well, I eat meat. So I eat meat. This is what I do. Like you can there can be all sorts of like, compassionate decisions within that that are more aligned with your values, even though you're making a decision that as a whole, maybe feels, you know, not completely in line.

Yeah. And it is it's just about like not being so black or white, like, oh, well, I eat meat. So I eat meat. This is what I do. Like you can there can be all sorts of like, compassionate decisions within that that are more aligned with your values, even though you're making a decision that as a whole, maybe feels, you know, not completely in line.

Yeah, it sure was. Yeah. I could do this all day.

Yeah, it sure was. Yeah. I could do this all day.

Yeah, it sure was. Yeah. I could do this all day.

Oh, thank you.

Oh, thank you.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah, I am everywhere where you get books. So, you know, Amazon, Audible, Barnes and Noble, you name it, you'll find it on social media. I'm on Instagram, TikTok and LinkedIn at Dr. Caroline Fleck.

Yeah, I am everywhere where you get books. So, you know, Amazon, Audible, Barnes and Noble, you name it, you'll find it on social media. I'm on Instagram, TikTok and LinkedIn at Dr. Caroline Fleck.

Yeah, I am everywhere where you get books. So, you know, Amazon, Audible, Barnes and Noble, you name it, you'll find it on social media. I'm on Instagram, TikTok and LinkedIn at Dr. Caroline Fleck.

Oh, yeah. And my website, drcarolinefleck.com has behind the scenes stuff from the book, including recorded conversations between me and my husband, in which I secretly try and validate him without him realizing it. Super fun.

Oh, yeah. And my website, drcarolinefleck.com has behind the scenes stuff from the book, including recorded conversations between me and my husband, in which I secretly try and validate him without him realizing it. Super fun.

Oh, yeah. And my website, drcarolinefleck.com has behind the scenes stuff from the book, including recorded conversations between me and my husband, in which I secretly try and validate him without him realizing it. Super fun.

Living a genius life means living a life with eyes both open, as we were describing. I think not jumping between these black or white, I'm a meat eater, I'm not a meat eater. I care about animals, I don't care about animals. But just being mindful of the ways in which you contradict yourself and trying to just make decisions that are more aligned while also

Living a genius life means living a life with eyes both open, as we were describing. I think not jumping between these black or white, I'm a meat eater, I'm not a meat eater. I care about animals, I don't care about animals. But just being mindful of the ways in which you contradict yourself and trying to just make decisions that are more aligned while also

Living a genius life means living a life with eyes both open, as we were describing. I think not jumping between these black or white, I'm a meat eater, I'm not a meat eater. I care about animals, I don't care about animals. But just being mindful of the ways in which you contradict yourself and trying to just make decisions that are more aligned while also

It is for all of the above. So there's a really interesting kind of backstory to validation, which is that it came out of a treatment, at least the skills that I teach. They were developed in a treatment for borderline personality disorder, which is a pretty severe psychological disorder. And up until the 90s, we had no treatment for this population.

It is for all of the above. So there's a really interesting kind of backstory to validation, which is that it came out of a treatment, at least the skills that I teach. They were developed in a treatment for borderline personality disorder, which is a pretty severe psychological disorder. And up until the 90s, we had no treatment for this population.

It is for all of the above. So there's a really interesting kind of backstory to validation, which is that it came out of a treatment, at least the skills that I teach. They were developed in a treatment for borderline personality disorder, which is a pretty severe psychological disorder. And up until the 90s, we had no treatment for this population.

So folks with BPD are highly stigmatized in the mental health field, and I think just in popular culture, in part because some of their external behavior can look and feel very aversive. So folks who are self-harming, folks who are what many would consider manipulative to try and get their needs met. And there's all of this externalizing behavior

So folks with BPD are highly stigmatized in the mental health field, and I think just in popular culture, in part because some of their external behavior can look and feel very aversive. So folks who are self-harming, folks who are what many would consider manipulative to try and get their needs met. And there's all of this externalizing behavior

So folks with BPD are highly stigmatized in the mental health field, and I think just in popular culture, in part because some of their external behavior can look and feel very aversive. So folks who are self-harming, folks who are what many would consider manipulative to try and get their needs met. And there's all of this externalizing behavior

This person kind of oscillates between loving and hating you. And there's these extremes at either end. And it can make for, as a therapist, a very difficult, quote unquote, patient.

This person kind of oscillates between loving and hating you. And there's these extremes at either end. And it can make for, as a therapist, a very difficult, quote unquote, patient.

This person kind of oscillates between loving and hating you. And there's these extremes at either end. And it can make for, as a therapist, a very difficult, quote unquote, patient.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What, if you're borderline?

What, if you're borderline?

What, if you're borderline?

Yeah, so it's more in the emotional experience beneath that. So there's this profound sense of emptiness, loss of identity kind of at the core, an inability to regulate anger. Emotional dysregulation is at the core of the disorder. And so there's a lot of often self-harm in an attempt to regulate emotion, which then graduates at some point to suicide attempts or suicide threats.

Yeah, so it's more in the emotional experience beneath that. So there's this profound sense of emptiness, loss of identity kind of at the core, an inability to regulate anger. Emotional dysregulation is at the core of the disorder. And so there's a lot of often self-harm in an attempt to regulate emotion, which then graduates at some point to suicide attempts or suicide threats.

Yeah, so it's more in the emotional experience beneath that. So there's this profound sense of emptiness, loss of identity kind of at the core, an inability to regulate anger. Emotional dysregulation is at the core of the disorder. And so there's a lot of often self-harm in an attempt to regulate emotion, which then graduates at some point to suicide attempts or suicide threats.

And this is a serious situation. This is a deadly condition. And for the longest time, even to this day, I meet tons of therapists who say they will not work with borderlines because they don't want to be, quote unquote, sued or harassed or X, Y, or Z. So just really ugly stuff out there around how we talk about and have historically treated this group.

And this is a serious situation. This is a deadly condition. And for the longest time, even to this day, I meet tons of therapists who say they will not work with borderlines because they don't want to be, quote unquote, sued or harassed or X, Y, or Z. So just really ugly stuff out there around how we talk about and have historically treated this group.

And this is a serious situation. This is a deadly condition. And for the longest time, even to this day, I meet tons of therapists who say they will not work with borderlines because they don't want to be, quote unquote, sued or harassed or X, Y, or Z. So just really ugly stuff out there around how we talk about and have historically treated this group.

And up until the 90s, like I said, we had no interventions that worked. This was just kind of like a life sentence if you were diagnosed with BPD. And it wasn't until we developed these validation skills, okay, finding a way to see the kernel of truth in someone's experience and communicate that, communicate some degree of acceptance while also pushing hard for change, right?

And up until the 90s, like I said, we had no interventions that worked. This was just kind of like a life sentence if you were diagnosed with BPD. And it wasn't until we developed these validation skills, okay, finding a way to see the kernel of truth in someone's experience and communicate that, communicate some degree of acceptance while also pushing hard for change, right?

And up until the 90s, like I said, we had no interventions that worked. This was just kind of like a life sentence if you were diagnosed with BPD. And it wasn't until we developed these validation skills, okay, finding a way to see the kernel of truth in someone's experience and communicate that, communicate some degree of acceptance while also pushing hard for change, right?

So when we combine this approach of acceptance and change, whoa, not only could we treat BPD, but the entire field of clinical psychology was revolutionized. And very few people outside of the field realize what that was and the effect that it had. It's really weird. It's like this secret that no one talks about.

So when we combine this approach of acceptance and change, whoa, not only could we treat BPD, but the entire field of clinical psychology was revolutionized. And very few people outside of the field realize what that was and the effect that it had. It's really weird. It's like this secret that no one talks about.

So when we combine this approach of acceptance and change, whoa, not only could we treat BPD, but the entire field of clinical psychology was revolutionized. And very few people outside of the field realize what that was and the effect that it had. It's really weird. It's like this secret that no one talks about.

Yeah, that's right. So up to that point, we had a lot of behavioral treatments, think reinforcement, shaping, right? Or cognitive behavioral treatments, which focus not just on changing how you behave, but also how you think. Those are very change-focused approaches, which works well if you want change and if you're willing to take feedback.

Yeah, that's right. So up to that point, we had a lot of behavioral treatments, think reinforcement, shaping, right? Or cognitive behavioral treatments, which focus not just on changing how you behave, but also how you think. Those are very change-focused approaches, which works well if you want change and if you're willing to take feedback.

Yeah, that's right. So up to that point, we had a lot of behavioral treatments, think reinforcement, shaping, right? Or cognitive behavioral treatments, which focus not just on changing how you behave, but also how you think. Those are very change-focused approaches, which works well if you want change and if you're willing to take feedback.

If you don't, if you don't trust your own capacity for change, if you don't trust the person across from you, or I don't know if you're an adolescent or somebody who's just like pretty resistant to a lot of what's coming in, it's not going to work. It just won't, okay?

If you don't, if you don't trust your own capacity for change, if you don't trust the person across from you, or I don't know if you're an adolescent or somebody who's just like pretty resistant to a lot of what's coming in, it's not going to work. It just won't, okay?

If you don't, if you don't trust your own capacity for change, if you don't trust the person across from you, or I don't know if you're an adolescent or somebody who's just like pretty resistant to a lot of what's coming in, it's not going to work. It just won't, okay?

And what we found is that when we combine some degree of validation or acceptance, when we emphasize that as much, if not more than change, people end up making pretty big transformations. Yeah, so the message is in DVT or at least in this treatment for BPD is I'm doing the best I can and I need to do better. So it's being able to hold those two things simultaneously

And what we found is that when we combine some degree of validation or acceptance, when we emphasize that as much, if not more than change, people end up making pretty big transformations. Yeah, so the message is in DVT or at least in this treatment for BPD is I'm doing the best I can and I need to do better. So it's being able to hold those two things simultaneously

And what we found is that when we combine some degree of validation or acceptance, when we emphasize that as much, if not more than change, people end up making pretty big transformations. Yeah, so the message is in DVT or at least in this treatment for BPD is I'm doing the best I can and I need to do better. So it's being able to hold those two things simultaneously

that is um that's where kind of the magic happens that's so cool yeah it is cool is there not the concern though that that might bleed into normalizing sure dysfunctional harmful behaviors absolutely i don't validate um experiences that aren't valid so for instance um I can validate why somebody would want to abuse substances.

that is um that's where kind of the magic happens that's so cool yeah it is cool is there not the concern though that that might bleed into normalizing sure dysfunctional harmful behaviors absolutely i don't validate um experiences that aren't valid so for instance um I can validate why somebody would want to abuse substances.

that is um that's where kind of the magic happens that's so cool yeah it is cool is there not the concern though that that might bleed into normalizing sure dysfunctional harmful behaviors absolutely i don't validate um experiences that aren't valid so for instance um I can validate why somebody would want to abuse substances.

I can totally validate why someone who came from a family in which drug abuse was pervasive, was all they saw, And it's now functioned to help them get through life and be more social and be more extra. I can validate all of the reasons why that person would want to use substances. And at the same time, I can say, I don't agree with that behavior. It's not effective for you. It's not working out.

I can totally validate why someone who came from a family in which drug abuse was pervasive, was all they saw, And it's now functioned to help them get through life and be more social and be more extra. I can validate all of the reasons why that person would want to use substances. And at the same time, I can say, I don't agree with that behavior. It's not effective for you. It's not working out.

I can totally validate why someone who came from a family in which drug abuse was pervasive, was all they saw, And it's now functioned to help them get through life and be more social and be more extra. I can validate all of the reasons why that person would want to use substances. And at the same time, I can say, I don't agree with that behavior. It's not effective for you. It's not working out.

So on some level, I have to be able to validate why you're in this situation, why you want to do what you're doing, if I'm actually going to challenge that behavior. Otherwise, I don't get it.

So on some level, I have to be able to validate why you're in this situation, why you want to do what you're doing, if I'm actually going to challenge that behavior. Otherwise, I don't get it.

So on some level, I have to be able to validate why you're in this situation, why you want to do what you're doing, if I'm actually going to challenge that behavior. Otherwise, I don't get it.

Yes, that's exactly right. I actually think of... An example of validation came from my daughter. So if she's wanting to use, so she wants a smartphone, all right? She's 11, and I'm a psychologist, so she's not getting a smartphone right now. If she was to come at me as she does and says, all my friends have smartphones, it's so unfair, you don't get it.

Yes, that's exactly right. I actually think of... An example of validation came from my daughter. So if she's wanting to use, so she wants a smartphone, all right? She's 11, and I'm a psychologist, so she's not getting a smartphone right now. If she was to come at me as she does and says, all my friends have smartphones, it's so unfair, you don't get it.

Yes, that's exactly right. I actually think of... An example of validation came from my daughter. So if she's wanting to use, so she wants a smartphone, all right? She's 11, and I'm a psychologist, so she's not getting a smartphone right now. If she was to come at me as she does and says, all my friends have smartphones, it's so unfair, you don't get it.

All these kind of common arguments that I've heard from her over and over. I'm not really... She's not going to change my opinion. However, if she came to me and said, I understand your concerns. In fact, I read this study and this study and this study, which says that these are the effects of smartphones on kids. And I totally understand that you as a parent are in a really hard place here.

All these kind of common arguments that I've heard from her over and over. I'm not really... She's not going to change my opinion. However, if she came to me and said, I understand your concerns. In fact, I read this study and this study and this study, which says that these are the effects of smartphones on kids. And I totally understand that you as a parent are in a really hard place here.

All these kind of common arguments that I've heard from her over and over. I'm not really... She's not going to change my opinion. However, if she came to me and said, I understand your concerns. In fact, I read this study and this study and this study, which says that these are the effects of smartphones on kids. And I totally understand that you as a parent are in a really hard place here.

You're trying to protect me from these negative outcomes, and you have to deal with me pushing for them. I totally get that. So here's what I'm going to propose. I think these are valid concerns. So if I get a phone, which would be a huge, you know, extension of trust from you.

You're trying to protect me from these negative outcomes, and you have to deal with me pushing for them. I totally get that. So here's what I'm going to propose. I think these are valid concerns. So if I get a phone, which would be a huge, you know, extension of trust from you.

You're trying to protect me from these negative outcomes, and you have to deal with me pushing for them. I totally get that. So here's what I'm going to propose. I think these are valid concerns. So if I get a phone, which would be a huge, you know, extension of trust from you.

Yeah, I know, I know, right? And it's not happening.

Yeah, I know, I know, right? And it's not happening.

Yeah, I know, I know, right? And it's not happening.

It is, it is, but you can imagine how, In that situation, her validating me actually goes so much further. Like I'm getting persuaded as she's talking. So in making my arguments for me, I am that much more, I'm like, okay, she sees the validity in my perspective. She gets it, she understands, she takes this seriously.

It is, it is, but you can imagine how, In that situation, her validating me actually goes so much further. Like I'm getting persuaded as she's talking. So in making my arguments for me, I am that much more, I'm like, okay, she sees the validity in my perspective. She gets it, she understands, she takes this seriously.

It is, it is, but you can imagine how, In that situation, her validating me actually goes so much further. Like I'm getting persuaded as she's talking. So in making my arguments for me, I am that much more, I'm like, okay, she sees the validity in my perspective. She gets it, she understands, she takes this seriously.

And when I feel that, I am much more receptive to the other person's perspective. Okay. I use that example because I think we always think about it in reverse. Like, how do I, you know, get the kid not to?

And when I feel that, I am much more receptive to the other person's perspective. Okay. I use that example because I think we always think about it in reverse. Like, how do I, you know, get the kid not to?

And when I feel that, I am much more receptive to the other person's perspective. Okay. I use that example because I think we always think about it in reverse. Like, how do I, you know, get the kid not to?

When in fact, we are all susceptible to these forces and that feeling of acceptance and feeling seen and feeling understood, that really makes us much more receptive to listening to the person across from us.

When in fact, we are all susceptible to these forces and that feeling of acceptance and feeling seen and feeling understood, that really makes us much more receptive to listening to the person across from us.

When in fact, we are all susceptible to these forces and that feeling of acceptance and feeling seen and feeling understood, that really makes us much more receptive to listening to the person across from us.

Yeah, it can be used to influence behavior. It can be used to reinforce behavioral changes. Another thing that's really controversial. Whenever I talk about that, people are like, that is so manipulative, that's so exploitative, you know, that you would actually use validation as reinforcement. In my experience, it is none of those things. It's very positive. I want people to validate me more.

Yeah, it can be used to influence behavior. It can be used to reinforce behavioral changes. Another thing that's really controversial. Whenever I talk about that, people are like, that is so manipulative, that's so exploitative, you know, that you would actually use validation as reinforcement. In my experience, it is none of those things. It's very positive. I want people to validate me more.

Yeah, it can be used to influence behavior. It can be used to reinforce behavioral changes. Another thing that's really controversial. Whenever I talk about that, people are like, that is so manipulative, that's so exploitative, you know, that you would actually use validation as reinforcement. In my experience, it is none of those things. It's very positive. I want people to validate me more.

All right. And if they want to reinforce my behavior through validation, please go ahead. Like you can do that all day. I love it. That's fine.

All right. And if they want to reinforce my behavior through validation, please go ahead. Like you can do that all day. I love it. That's fine.

All right. And if they want to reinforce my behavior through validation, please go ahead. Like you can do that all day. I love it. That's fine.

Just by copying. Yeah. So this is what I'm saying about how you use these entry skills to cultivate more understanding and empathy. And that is how you move to higher levels of validation. Because my full-time job is working with people who are saying, doing, and believing things that are distorted to the extent of being pathological.

Just by copying. Yeah. So this is what I'm saying about how you use these entry skills to cultivate more understanding and empathy. And that is how you move to higher levels of validation. Because my full-time job is working with people who are saying, doing, and believing things that are distorted to the extent of being pathological.

Well, Caroline, it's clear. I guess this is done. I guess we're not working together anymore. Me saying, I'm sorry, what happened? I emailed you yesterday. You didn't respond? Didn't respond to me? Oh, I'm so sorry. I had so many... Immediately I'm getting defensive, right? I am so sorry. I had so many... You know that I self-harm.

Well, Caroline, it's clear. I guess this is done. I guess we're not working together anymore. Me saying, I'm sorry, what happened? I emailed you yesterday. You didn't respond? Didn't respond to me? Oh, I'm so sorry. I had so many... Immediately I'm getting defensive, right? I am so sorry. I had so many... You know that I self-harm.

You don't care. You don't care. You think this is fun. You think this is fun. Just really kind of... Wow.

You don't care. You don't care. You think this is fun. You think this is fun. Just really kind of... Wow.

It is. And in my heart, I'm feeling responsible for... For what's going on.

It is. And in my heart, I'm feeling responsible for... For what's going on.

And then like, I need to get this under control. So it's that type of, those types of situations. And if these skills work in those situations... Their potential when the stakes are much lower and folks are much more rational is significantly bigger.

And then like, I need to get this under control. So it's that type of, those types of situations. And if these skills work in those situations... Their potential when the stakes are much lower and folks are much more rational is significantly bigger.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes. I mean, it's much easier.

Yes. I mean, it's much easier.

There's a lot of different things that go into that. At this, at that point, what I would start doing genuinely is actually to copy back. Okay. So let me get this right. I want to make sure I've got this. You emailed me yesterday. From your perspective, this should have been a signal to me that you were in crisis. Okay. I, okay. And I need to be careful not to say that wasn't in your email.

There's a lot of different things that go into that. At this, at that point, what I would start doing genuinely is actually to copy back. Okay. So let me get this right. I want to make sure I've got this. You emailed me yesterday. From your perspective, this should have been a signal to me that you were in crisis. Okay. I, okay. And I need to be careful not to say that wasn't in your email.

Just like, so, so right now I got it. You were feeling like I totally betrayed you. Like I'm intentionally trying to hurt you. Oh my gosh. Okay. I get, I see, I see, I see. Oh, I'm so sorry. You feel that way. Oh my gosh. That is no, no, no, no. That is not what happened. Not from my, can I share my perspective?

Just like, so, so right now I got it. You were feeling like I totally betrayed you. Like I'm intentionally trying to hurt you. Oh my gosh. Okay. I get, I see, I see, I see. Oh, I'm so sorry. You feel that way. Oh my gosh. That is no, no, no, no. That is not what happened. Not from my, can I share my perspective?

It's okay if you don't want me to, cause that could sound offensive, but I really, I, I, I'm, I, it hurts my heart that there was this miscommunication.

It's okay if you don't want me to, cause that could sound offensive, but I really, I, I, I'm, I, it hurts my heart that there was this miscommunication.

Yeah, a little.

Yeah, a little.

No, because I am seeing like that's their world. That's their perspective. I do see that. I'm not saying anything I don't believe. Now, here's the thing. It's acceptance and change, not acceptance or change. They are two sides of the same coin. So I can validate. And then once there's once I see that that has resonated, I switch gears. OK, but let's look at this for a second.

No, because I am seeing like that's their world. That's their perspective. I do see that. I'm not saying anything I don't believe. Now, here's the thing. It's acceptance and change, not acceptance or change. They are two sides of the same coin. So I can validate. And then once there's once I see that that has resonated, I switch gears. OK, but let's look at this for a second.

If you keep responding to people in this way when they miss a message from you, I'm worried you're going to start burning people out. Because the other thing I felt just now was attacked and scared and not in a good way. All right.

If you keep responding to people in this way when they miss a message from you, I'm worried you're going to start burning people out. Because the other thing I felt just now was attacked and scared and not in a good way. All right.

Is there anything we could have done, do you think, that could have brought down the intensity just a little bit so you could give me that message but not, you know, make me want to hide under the couch?

Is there anything we could have done, do you think, that could have brought down the intensity just a little bit so you could give me that message but not, you know, make me want to hide under the couch?

So that's it. That's that combination. You see how I'm going from validation to change.

So that's it. That's that combination. You see how I'm going from validation to change.

Right.

Right.

Yeah. And the second is copying, which is that mimicry that I do.

Yeah. And the second is copying, which is that mimicry that I do.

That's right. So it's a two-parter. It's that little game that you're playing in the head, and then it's nonverbals. All right. And what was the first thing to go out the window once we were in lockdown from COVID?

That's right. So it's a two-parter. It's that little game that you're playing in the head, and then it's nonverbals. All right. And what was the first thing to go out the window once we were in lockdown from COVID?

Proximity.

Proximity.

I mean, all of it, I guess. Gestures get really awkward. Everything.

I mean, all of it, I guess. Gestures get really awkward. Everything.

Everything.

Everything.

It's hard to feel seen. It's hard to feel connected, right? And I'm not saying that that explains all of the loneliness we experienced. But as a therapist, I can vouch for the fact that it was significantly harder. I had one hand tied behind my back. Because these skills that I've learned to rely on, I could not use. And that's hard. And that is something we sacrifice by being so online.

It's hard to feel seen. It's hard to feel connected, right? And I'm not saying that that explains all of the loneliness we experienced. But as a therapist, I can vouch for the fact that it was significantly harder. I had one hand tied behind my back. Because these skills that I've learned to rely on, I could not use. And that's hard. And that is something we sacrifice by being so online.

And if you think there's nothing meaningful there, I would challenge you to look at the research on kind of how folks who are online for hours and hours a day fare in terms of mental health and relationships. Yeah, it's not good stuff.

And if you think there's nothing meaningful there, I would challenge you to look at the research on kind of how folks who are online for hours and hours a day fare in terms of mental health and relationships. Yeah, it's not good stuff.

Or at the top, I see myself in you. That is real power.

Or at the top, I see myself in you. That is real power.

When I look at you, it's like looking in the mirror. I see so much of my own experiences. I can relate so deeply to what you're describing. It's like we're one in the same. That's the moments you have, perhaps in self-disclosure, when someone says to another, hey, man, I'm also an AA. Right. Immediate. There's an understanding there. There's a sameness.

When I look at you, it's like looking in the mirror. I see so much of my own experiences. I can relate so deeply to what you're describing. It's like we're one in the same. That's the moments you have, perhaps in self-disclosure, when someone says to another, hey, man, I'm also an AA. Right. Immediate. There's an understanding there. There's a sameness.

There's connection. And I would actually go a step further with how critical validation is. This sounds like controversial. I see that. But I think it is more important than love. I think you cannot have true love in the absence of having been and having consistently been validated.

There's connection. And I would actually go a step further with how critical validation is. This sounds like controversial. I see that. But I think it is more important than love. I think you cannot have true love in the absence of having been and having consistently been validated.

If there isn't validation in the relationship, it's hard to feel loved. Because if you don't feel accepted or seen, what does the person love?

If there isn't validation in the relationship, it's hard to feel loved. Because if you don't feel accepted or seen, what does the person love?

No, you can love a facade, but that doesn't feel good. I can, you know, create all these stories about myself and, you know, filter this and filter that and get all sorts of likes and praise, which is a positive judgment. Praise says, I like how you look or I like how you perform. Validation says, I accept you independent of how you look or perform. Okay.

No, you can love a facade, but that doesn't feel good. I can, you know, create all these stories about myself and, you know, filter this and filter that and get all sorts of likes and praise, which is a positive judgment. Praise says, I like how you look or I like how you perform. Validation says, I accept you independent of how you look or perform. Okay.

In the absence of feeling seen, feeling accepted, it's hard to feel deeply loved. We don't, I mean, we haven't been vulnerable. We haven't shown ourselves or we have, and the other person has been like, whoa, that's weird. And we shut that down.

In the absence of feeling seen, feeling accepted, it's hard to feel deeply loved. We don't, I mean, we haven't been vulnerable. We haven't shown ourselves or we have, and the other person has been like, whoa, that's weird. And we shut that down.

Right. And so they love the parts of us that we've shown or dressed up, but perhaps not the entirety of who we are.

Right. And so they love the parts of us that we've shown or dressed up, but perhaps not the entirety of who we are.

Yeah. So the research on attraction is often with copying. So we are more attracted to people who copy us, which is like just if you're going on a first date.

Yeah. So the research on attraction is often with copying. So we are more attracted to people who copy us, which is like just if you're going on a first date.

Always try to, right.

Always try to, right.

Right, right, right, right. But like, don't be, you know, again, as I said before, I give myself just this little cute copy. That's it. Because if I'm like really dialed in on it, it gets awkward.

Right, right, right, right. But like, don't be, you know, again, as I said before, I give myself just this little cute copy. That's it. Because if I'm like really dialed in on it, it gets awkward.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. But again, we're naturally wired to do this. And so if you just kind of remember it in a moment, that's sufficient.

Yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. But again, we're naturally wired to do this. And so if you just kind of remember it in a moment, that's sufficient.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right. We see it as almost a common courtesy.

That's right. We see it as almost a common courtesy.

But it is at a deeper level. And when it's used more intentionally to kind of establish connection, it can be used in those ways.

But it is at a deeper level. And when it's used more intentionally to kind of establish connection, it can be used in those ways.

I am thrilled.

I am thrilled.

Yeah. The next level up is to say, is to show some degree of understanding. Right. And usually this is like logical understanding, cognitive understanding. I can see how you got there. Right. And there's a couple of skills here. You can do the, anyone in your shoes would feel that way. Right. Like anyone in your shoes would be probably anxious about this set coming together.

Yeah. The next level up is to say, is to show some degree of understanding. Right. And usually this is like logical understanding, cognitive understanding. I can see how you got there. Right. And there's a couple of skills here. You can do the, anyone in your shoes would feel that way. Right. Like anyone in your shoes would be probably anxious about this set coming together.

You can do anyone in your shoes. A way more effective way to do it is like, oh my God, yes, I would be so anxious to. Like, me too. If you think about going to a doctor and them saying, like, if you're like, yeah, I don't know, I think I might, I don't know if I should get a second opinion. You should absolutely get a second opinion. If it was my child, that's what I would do.

You can do anyone in your shoes. A way more effective way to do it is like, oh my God, yes, I would be so anxious to. Like, me too. If you think about going to a doctor and them saying, like, if you're like, yeah, I don't know, I think I might, I don't know if I should get a second opinion. You should absolutely get a second opinion. If it was my child, that's what I would do.

We're like, yummy, that feels good. There's this sense of like, okay, I'm valid. What I'm thinking is valid. It's reasonable. I'm not being dramatic. I'm not being X, Y, or Z. That's kind of what these understanding skills communicate. One of them happens to double as a Jedi mind trick. I've just got a word here.

We're like, yummy, that feels good. There's this sense of like, okay, I'm valid. What I'm thinking is valid. It's reasonable. I'm not being dramatic. I'm not being X, Y, or Z. That's kind of what these understanding skills communicate. One of them happens to double as a Jedi mind trick. I've just got a word here.

Proposing.

Proposing.

Proposing is when, you know, I was playing that little game in my head earlier where I'm trying to figure out like, you know, what are you thinking? Why does this matter to you? I don't actually communicate any of that. This is all just in my head to keep me engaged. But if I come up with some stuff, I can throw it out there and see what sticks. I can propose something you haven't said. All right.

Proposing is when, you know, I was playing that little game in my head earlier where I'm trying to figure out like, you know, what are you thinking? Why does this matter to you? I don't actually communicate any of that. This is all just in my head to keep me engaged. But if I come up with some stuff, I can throw it out there and see what sticks. I can propose something you haven't said. All right.

It's also known as like mind reading.

It's also known as like mind reading.

You know, a great example was actually an interview with Oprah and Meghan Markle. And Meghan Markle is describing this life of being in front of the paparazzi and feeling like she couldn't be her true self. And then she's obviously kind of pained and shamed about having not stood up for herself. And she looks at Oprah and she says, I just, I was silent throughout this experience.

You know, a great example was actually an interview with Oprah and Meghan Markle. And Meghan Markle is describing this life of being in front of the paparazzi and feeling like she couldn't be her true self. And then she's obviously kind of pained and shamed about having not stood up for herself. And she looks at Oprah and she says, I just, I was silent throughout this experience.

I just, I was just silent. And then Oprah being Oprah says, were you silent or were you silenced? Oprah effect. Right? That's proposing. That's articulating something the person hasn't said. And if you're really good, if you really nail it, perhaps you facilitate an insight that they didn't even have.

I just, I was just silent. And then Oprah being Oprah says, were you silent or were you silenced? Oprah effect. Right? That's proposing. That's articulating something the person hasn't said. And if you're really good, if you really nail it, perhaps you facilitate an insight that they didn't even have.

So this is such a critical point. I'm glad you dialed in on that because I can't emphasize enough. These are skills. All right. And to develop any skill, you've got to strike out. Right. Usually you if it's a skill for like a sport or something, you're getting coaching on the side. As therapists, I'm getting a lot of coaching on the side.

So this is such a critical point. I'm glad you dialed in on that because I can't emphasize enough. These are skills. All right. And to develop any skill, you've got to strike out. Right. Usually you if it's a skill for like a sport or something, you're getting coaching on the side. As therapists, I'm getting a lot of coaching on the side.

And you're just taking that feedback in to sharpen those skills. But with this stuff, we tend to really internalize the feedback. And get shut down or feel rejected or like, oh God, I'm just going to make things worse. And that is a mistake. You have to look at these things as skills that you develop. And you're right. You strike out, you get some feedback.

And you're just taking that feedback in to sharpen those skills. But with this stuff, we tend to really internalize the feedback. And get shut down or feel rejected or like, oh God, I'm just going to make things worse. And that is a mistake. You have to look at these things as skills that you develop. And you're right. You strike out, you get some feedback.

Oprah strikes out all the freaking time. It's amazing. Like go watch these and she's throw things out. And it's just like, no, I wasn't scared. I was humiliated, you know? And she's like humiliated. She goes back down the ladder, copying humiliated. Hmm. What was humiliating about it? Attending. She gets more information. She gets more than she tries again. It doesn't stick.