Dr. Kurt Gray

Right.

He knew that I knew he was concerned about protecting his family in a different way than I thought would be the best way to protect your family and society.

But he knew I respected him.

And then the conversation could go better.

But I think a challenge to these conversations is, right, because we're so entrenched in our political party versus the conservatives, right, we feel like even trying to understand is somehow like betraying our side.

Like if you just are seeking to understand the other side, you're somehow betraying the cause.

But I think it's not true.

I mean, you know, I talk about this stuff a lot and many people are suspicious.

They're like, both sides, it's a...

I'm like, no, you can hold fast to your convictions, but if you want to affect change, if you want to advance your goals, you need to understand people who are opposed to those goals and you need to build coalitions.

So even just from a pragmatic perspective, you need to understand them.

And from a democracy perspective, democracy flourishes when there's distinct ideas and you need to understand what could be interesting and what section of them could be true to kind of navigate the messiness of our modern life.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

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