Dr. Rangan Chatterjee

But I choose to take that approach to life and it's really, really helped me because now my first instinct, if someone's attacking me online, if something's happening, if someone disagrees with me, my first instinct now, because I've trained it for years is, oh, I wonder why they think so differently to me.

And you just don't generate all this internal stress that affects people in the first place. And once you start interacting with life like that, I think forgiveness becomes a lot easier because then you're like, oh, if I was that person, I'd be doing the same as them. Oh, their dad cheated. They grew up seeing that. It doesn't make it right, but I think it makes it easier.

And you just don't generate all this internal stress that affects people in the first place. And once you start interacting with life like that, I think forgiveness becomes a lot easier because then you're like, oh, if I was that person, I'd be doing the same as them. Oh, their dad cheated. They grew up seeing that. It doesn't make it right, but I think it makes it easier.

And again, do you know when I learned that the most, right? Have you heard of John McAvoy?

And again, do you know when I learned that the most, right? Have you heard of John McAvoy?

No, no. So John McAvoy, I had a wonderful conversation with him on my podcast about five years ago, Lewis. You would love talking to him, I promise you. He used to be one of Britain's most wanted criminals. Wow. Right. So he was locked up in Europe's highest security prison with two life sentences. Right. With all the terrorists, he was locked up there. And he got out. He got out. Wow.

No, no. So John McAvoy, I had a wonderful conversation with him on my podcast about five years ago, Lewis. You would love talking to him, I promise you. He used to be one of Britain's most wanted criminals. Wow. Right. So he was locked up in Europe's highest security prison with two life sentences. Right. With all the terrorists, he was locked up there. And he got out. He got out. Wow.

And he's like, he's one of the loveliest people I know. Right. I would leave him alone with my children. Right. I think he's the most wonderful person. But I spoke to him for two hours and he went through his life story with me. And he told me about his upbringing, that his dad wasn't around. And that the only male figures in his life were armed robbers. And they came rounds.

And he's like, he's one of the loveliest people I know. Right. I would leave him alone with my children. Right. I think he's the most wonderful person. But I spoke to him for two hours and he went through his life story with me. And he told me about his upbringing, that his dad wasn't around. And that the only male figures in his life were armed robbers. And they came rounds.

They had fancy clothes and they drove nice cars. And they had a code of conduct. They treated women well. Like they had their own code of conduct. And I remember there was so much in that conversation because he's now a free man, inspiring kids all around the world to get into physical activity. It's an incredible story.

They had fancy clothes and they drove nice cars. And they had a code of conduct. They treated women well. Like they had their own code of conduct. And I remember there was so much in that conversation because he's now a free man, inspiring kids all around the world to get into physical activity. It's an incredible story.

But I remember when he left my house after recording on the podcast, my mind was blown and I saw my wife in the kitchen. I said, babe, you know what? If I was John, if I had lived John's life, I think I'd be in jail right now. Like I genuinely thought if I had his childhood, I would be in prison. Or dead. Or dead. And it really helps me understand that, look, we all see the world differently.

But I remember when he left my house after recording on the podcast, my mind was blown and I saw my wife in the kitchen. I said, babe, you know what? If I was John, if I had lived John's life, I think I'd be in jail right now. Like I genuinely thought if I had his childhood, I would be in prison. Or dead. Or dead. And it really helps me understand that, look, we all see the world differently.

It's very easy to judge. And I get it. Some things are horrible and really traumatic. And you're going to probably need help to process that. But I'm saying there is a cost of not processing that. So let me go back to what you said about Dr. Rahmani, who I really admire and respect. Yeah, she's great. I don't have the experience that she has with narcissistic individuals. I don't.

It's very easy to judge. And I get it. Some things are horrible and really traumatic. And you're going to probably need help to process that. But I'm saying there is a cost of not processing that. So let me go back to what you said about Dr. Rahmani, who I really admire and respect. Yeah, she's great. I don't have the experience that she has with narcissistic individuals. I don't.

She has every reason to believe what she believes. My belief, based on my 23 years of clinical experience and what I've seen with patients, what I've seen in the research, and what I've experienced myself... Is that if you can learn the art of letting go of the past and moving on, maybe you don't like the term forgiveness. Yes.

She has every reason to believe what she believes. My belief, based on my 23 years of clinical experience and what I've seen with patients, what I've seen in the research, and what I've experienced myself... Is that if you can learn the art of letting go of the past and moving on, maybe you don't like the term forgiveness. Yes.

So I think that can be triggering for some people because they feel it's like, I'm forgiving that person for what they did. I don't mean that. Maybe don't forgive it, but let it go and move on. Let go and move on is how I describe it in this book, right? Yeah. I think you do not realize the lightness in your being that exists on the other side.

So I think that can be triggering for some people because they feel it's like, I'm forgiving that person for what they did. I don't mean that. Maybe don't forgive it, but let it go and move on. Let go and move on is how I describe it in this book, right? Yeah. I think you do not realize the lightness in your being that exists on the other side.

I mean, Lewis, why don't you, I mean, if you don't mind, like I'd love to know from you, like you have acknowledged publicly on many occasions how you struggle with this for years, but you have moved through that. How has that been for you when you weren't able to forgive and now, would you say that you can forgive now?