Dwarkesh Hirani

That's a top of 60% that is owed by?

Yeah.

And the high level way to understand what this debt was for, the debt in Western countries and other OECD countries is often because you owe money basically to pensioners.

In this case, it was just that they built for

Right.

For startups, is the fact that they can get cheap credit from banks more relevant?

Is the fact that they can get loans from provincial funds more important?

There's also these central government funds, the big fund and so forth.

Which is the bigger piece here?

And the crucial thing here is that the banking sector is totally controlled by the state.

So you're not getting a true rate of return based on what the productive value of investment is.

It's literally like 1%.

Yes.

The deposit rate is 1%.

Yeah.

Which is, I mean, it's like an insanely low return.

Yeah.

There's a couple of mixed up questions I want to ask here, basically.

So you said, well, if there were no capital controls, these people might want to take their money and go invest in Silicon Valley.

Very basic development economics would show you that if a country is less developed, they'll have higher rates of return.