Emily Bazelon

So David was talking about one way to think about the foreign policy goals.

Then there's immigration, where we really have seen enforcement step up in the interior of the country in a way that I think exceeded a lot of people's expectations.

It's just like such a giant project.

Turns out if you're willing to, you know, vastly increase the budget for ICE and just snatch people up off the street, you can do

pick up a lot of people and put them in detention and into deportation proceedings.

So that's effective with enormous costs.

And then I think the tariffs have been kind of all over the place.

You know, they've gone up and down.

They've been slapdash.

We're waiting for the Supreme Court to decide whether they can remain.

But until they're gone, they have also, you know, had a real impact in terms of America's place in the world.

One thing I think about and wrestle with is a clever move that the Trump administration has made is that the group of people who are other in our scenario right now are undocumented immigrants to start with, and they don't have the same rights as Americans.

Right.

Like it is true that they are subject to deportation.

And so I feel like that was the kind of the crack, the way in to this dual state.

And now we're at the point where it's yes, it's the undocumented immigrants.

And there is a lot of injustice going on in how they are being subject to the force of deportation and detention through ICE.

But then there's also everybody else who might try to ally with them or help them.

And so, you know, Renee Good has obviously paid the price of her life.

Then there are the protesters who are also subject to harassment, sometimes violence, lawbreaking.