Emily Bazelon

And yes, they probably are going to push back on in some of the most extreme cases.

But I agree with you, Aaron, that we're still going to end up with expanded presidential power for this particular president.

And I think the other insight of the questions that you asked is that when the political system is not operating in a way that there are obvious consequences for someone who is abusing power, then it's really hard for the legal system to fix the whole thing.

Yeah.

To me, the most important question is what happens in the upcoming elections.

Are they free and fair?

Are Americans taking in and absorbing the threats and risks that I think that, you know, you and David are laying out there in a way that affects Americans?

how they vote, what message do they send to the Republican Party, which has been, you know, so much behind Trump.

And then eventually, you know, what message do they send in 2028 when they're electing the next president?

And it's in some ways because, you know, the polls have sagged, right?

Trump is not popular, but he's not like in the basement.

And also the stock market, while it seems shaky with this latest, you know, threat to Greenland, has not totally tanked either.

The indicators are not blinking red in a way that if you are a politician other than Trump, you can conclude that you obviously should like run as far as you can from him.

And it's those political and market indicators that I think in the end matter as much or more than the courts, even though I don't want to let the courts off the hook.

David, you go first.

Well, that gives lawyers and courts a lot of power.

It reminds me of a nonfiction book that I really love called Devil in the Grove.

The subtitle is Thurgood Marshall, The Groveland Boys and the Dawn of a New America.

Yeah.

And it's from 1949.