Ezra Klein

Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem.

Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem.

If President Donald Trump decides that you are to rot in a foreign prison, then that is his right. And you, you have no rights. We are not even 100 days into this administration, and we are already faced with this level of horror. And I can feel the desire to look away from it, even in me. What all this demands is too inconvenient, too disruptive. But Trump has said it all plainly and publicly.

If President Donald Trump decides that you are to rot in a foreign prison, then that is his right. And you, you have no rights. We are not even 100 days into this administration, and we are already faced with this level of horror. And I can feel the desire to look away from it, even in me. What all this demands is too inconvenient, too disruptive. But Trump has said it all plainly and publicly.

He intends to send those he hates to foreign prisons beyond the reach of U.S. law. He does not care. He will not even seek to discover if those he is sending into these foreign hells are guilty of what he claims. Because this is not about their guilt. It is about his power. And if he is capable of that, if he wants that, then what else is he capable of? What else does he want?

He intends to send those he hates to foreign prisons beyond the reach of U.S. law. He does not care. He will not even seek to discover if those he is sending into these foreign hells are guilty of what he claims. Because this is not about their guilt. It is about his power. And if he is capable of that, if he wants that, then what else is he capable of? What else does he want?

And if the people who serve him are willing to give him that, to defend his right to do that, what else will they give him? What else will they defend? This is the emergency. Like it or not, it's here. My guest today is Asha Rangappa. Rangappa is a former FBI special agent and now the assistant dean at the Yale University's Jackson School of Global Affairs.

And if the people who serve him are willing to give him that, to defend his right to do that, what else will they give him? What else will they defend? This is the emergency. Like it or not, it's here. My guest today is Asha Rangappa. Rangappa is a former FBI special agent and now the assistant dean at the Yale University's Jackson School of Global Affairs.

She's also the author of the sub stack, The Freedom Academy. Asha Rangappa, welcome to the show.

She's also the author of the sub stack, The Freedom Academy. Asha Rangappa, welcome to the show.

So I want to begin in the somewhat dark place that we're in. It looks to me that the administration is pretty directly disobeying Supreme Court orders in at least the Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia case. What recourse is available to the courts or to the system?

So I want to begin in the somewhat dark place that we're in. It looks to me that the administration is pretty directly disobeying Supreme Court orders in at least the Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia case. What recourse is available to the courts or to the system?

But Trump could just pardon you.

But Trump could just pardon you.

Well, the Trump administration's, I don't know if the right word for it is interpretation of the order. Certainly their spin of the order, if you're listening to Stephen Miller, is this was a huge victory for us because what the Supreme Court said is nobody can make us. that we maybe have to facilitate but don't have to effectuate. There's a lot of hair splitting in that language going on.

Well, the Trump administration's, I don't know if the right word for it is interpretation of the order. Certainly their spin of the order, if you're listening to Stephen Miller, is this was a huge victory for us because what the Supreme Court said is nobody can make us. that we maybe have to facilitate but don't have to effectuate. There's a lot of hair splitting in that language going on.

But their view is that the Supreme Court has created or has validated a fairly large zone of authority, which is foreign policy, for the executive for Donald Trump. And that if you read that order correctly, what the Supreme Court really said is that what they will do about it is nothing.

But their view is that the Supreme Court has created or has validated a fairly large zone of authority, which is foreign policy, for the executive for Donald Trump. And that if you read that order correctly, what the Supreme Court really said is that what they will do about it is nothing.

So when the president says it is about national security, that means it's not illegal to twist the old Nixon line.

So when the president says it is about national security, that means it's not illegal to twist the old Nixon line.