Ezra Klein

So before we move to Congress, I want to just make sure I understand what you were saying and that the level of alarm rising in me as you say it is merited, which is what I hear you saying is that there is no check from the courts on this.

So before we move to Congress, I want to just make sure I understand what you were saying and that the level of alarm rising in me as you say it is merited, which is what I hear you saying is that there is no check from the courts on this.

They have told the administration to facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia and to allow him the due process as if the original administrative error, quote unquote, had not been made. The Trump administration has been perfectly clear that they will not do that.

They have told the administration to facilitate the return of Abrego Garcia and to allow him the due process as if the original administrative error, quote unquote, had not been made. The Trump administration has been perfectly clear that they will not do that.

You do not seem to me to expect there's going to be some secondary round here from the Supreme Court that in some way forces them to do a thing that I don't think they want to do.

You do not seem to me to expect there's going to be some secondary round here from the Supreme Court that in some way forces them to do a thing that I don't think they want to do.

Even if it would be in their legal interest to do that in some other world, in the world we actually live in, where it's very likely this guy has been brutalized or tortured, where him coming back to the United States where his story could be heard would be politically devastating for the administration, that in practice it's not in there.

Even if it would be in their legal interest to do that in some other world, in the world we actually live in, where it's very likely this guy has been brutalized or tortured, where him coming back to the United States where his story could be heard would be politically devastating for the administration, that in practice it's not in there.

interest for him to come back and for any of the people sent out on this authority to come back.

interest for him to come back and for any of the people sent out on this authority to come back.

Because every one of those people, if they come back and it becomes clear the administration made not just a terrible mistake, but deported somebody into a hell for no reason at all, that it's actually a political imperative for them that that story cannot be told, that Bukele keeps them in Seacott functionally forever.

Because every one of those people, if they come back and it becomes clear the administration made not just a terrible mistake, but deported somebody into a hell for no reason at all, that it's actually a political imperative for them that that story cannot be told, that Bukele keeps them in Seacott functionally forever.

So during the George W. Bush administration, there was famously the removal, the shipping of people who were deemed threats to Black sites, to prisons in other places that were not bound by our laws. How similar is the theory and the powers of what we're seeing to what was being invoked and used there?

So during the George W. Bush administration, there was famously the removal, the shipping of people who were deemed threats to Black sites, to prisons in other places that were not bound by our laws. How similar is the theory and the powers of what we're seeing to what was being invoked and used there?

I mean, that's horrifying.

I mean, that's horrifying.

They've been very legally savvy, right? I think something that is very important and telling about the individual cases here, which has been true across a lot of what the Trump administration has done in different domains, is that if they wanted to protect this power and expand it maximally, they would choose the people, the cases, the laws, the authorities very, very, very carefully.

They've been very legally savvy, right? I think something that is very important and telling about the individual cases here, which has been true across a lot of what the Trump administration has done in different domains, is that if they wanted to protect this power and expand it maximally, they would choose the people, the cases, the laws, the authorities very, very, very carefully.

And what you see with the Abrego Garcia case, although not only him, is is they're not doing that. They are choosing people, whether they intend to be doing this or not. It's very hard to know what is incompetence and what is intentional malice. But they're choosing people whom it looks terrible for them to be doing this to. I mean, there's a reason people know his name.

And what you see with the Abrego Garcia case, although not only him, is is they're not doing that. They are choosing people, whether they intend to be doing this or not. It's very hard to know what is incompetence and what is intentional malice. But they're choosing people whom it looks terrible for them to be doing this to. I mean, there's a reason people know his name.