Ezra Klein

She just thinks this is a space of creativity and that a lot of creative thinking comes out of mind-wandering and daydreaming.

It's something novelists do all the time.

They get pretty good at daydreaming.

She says we've lost this.

You know, the space of our interiority for this kind of thinking is diminished because of our distractions, our technological distractions.

I think it... Oh, I think it is very productive.

It's just, how are you defining productivity?

And turning off the spotlight.

Mm-hmm.

That the spotlight gets in the way because of those blinders.

And I think when you're daydreaming or mind-wandering, the blinders are kind of opened up and you're taking in information from more places.

She argues that it's just the belief that this is unproductive thought because nobody wants mind-wandering workers.

Yeah.

Right?

The capitalists want us to be, you know, spotlight consciousness.

And the example she gave is like, right now, my job is to grade blue book exams, and that's what I should be doing.

But my real life project is making sense of my life and having a fulfilling life, and I would be better off taking a walk or mind wandering.

So there's a tension.

There's a tension there between what the economy considers productive thought and what emotionally is productive thought or creativity.

Do you have a pencil or pen in your hand?