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Ezra Klein

👤 Speaker
15561 total appearances

Appearances Over Time

Podcast Appearances

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

Yeah.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

Tell me some of them.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

So I'm going to back up a little bit to make sense of this idea.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

One of the big questions is your brain, at least 90% of what it's doing, you're not aware of.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

It's doing all this work, monitoring your body, maintaining homeostasis, perceiving things in your environment without you being consciously aware of it.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

Peripheral visions, smell, scent, touch, all these kind of things, temperature.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

So the question then becomes, if this automatic machine is so good at what it does, why does any of it become conscious?

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

That's part of the hard problem of consciousness.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

Why aren't we just zombies?

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

You know, wouldn't that have been simpler?

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

And the reasons, and to some extent these are evolutionary, just those stories, but they're persuasive, that basically you can automate things until you get to a level of complexity.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

And for us, it's our social lives.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

The fact that we are fundamentally social beings, absolutely dependent on other people.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

With a long period of complete dependence for babies and children compared to other species, social life cannot be automated.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

It's just too complex.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

So you need to be able to anticipate what I'm likely to say, how a remark is going to land.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

We call it theory of mind, this idea that we can imagine our way into other people, basis of compassion and things like that.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

So once we entered this realm of great complexity, automating our responses just wasn't going to work.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

And the creatures that had consciousness that could imagine what was going on in another human's head did better than people who didn't and failed to imagine what was going on in someone else's head.

The Ezra Klein Show
Michael Pollan’s Journey to the Borderlands of Consciousness

I find that a pretty persuasive theory.