Ezra Klein

They're returning us to a... If it's not full-scale animism, it's a reanimated world where there is just... And I did come out of this research experience of looking at plant consciousness or plant sentience with a sense that the world is more alive than I thought.

Oh, yeah.

Especially on ayahuasca.

Which is a plant-based, right?

It's two plants.

It's a brew of two plants.

If you ask most ayahuasqueros, how did anyone ever figure out the recipe because it's so obscure that these two plants cooked together would have this effect and neither by themselves has any effect.

or much of any effect.

And they'll tell you the plants taught me, and they will mean it.

And we don't know through the lens of Western science how to listen to that.

It sounds ridiculous to us.

I mean, if I came out anywhere on this whole book, it's like my mind is much more open than it was to a lot of weird stuff, just because the normal stuff hasn't really panned out that well.

Now, why would the plant-based psychedelics be more likely to do this than the chemistry-based psychedelics?

I think there it's set and setting.

You know, Timothy Leary's great contribution was explaining that the psychedelic experience is shaped profoundly by the physical setting in which it takes place and the mindset, the mental setting that you bring to it.

When you're using a plant-based psychedelic, I mean, the imagery is all jungle imagery.

You know, people see leopards and they see vines.

Do you think that's because of set and setting or because of something in the... I think it's set and setting, yeah.

No, but there's like 5% of me that was like, okay, maybe.

I'm kind of, I've entered this never say never realm with this research.