Ezra Klein

But one of the problems and the reason I keep trying to push people to be very clear about their arguments and very clear about their metrics is that I feel like there's this King's Cup of what we're trying to achieve here, where one day it's that we're trying to achieve the reindustrialization of the American heartland. And the next we're trying to replace the income tax with tariff income.

But one of the problems and the reason I keep trying to push people to be very clear about their arguments and very clear about their metrics is that I feel like there's this King's Cup of what we're trying to achieve here, where one day it's that we're trying to achieve the reindustrialization of the American heartland. And the next we're trying to replace the income tax with tariff income.

And then the next we're just using it as all purpose surplus leverage against any country that does anything we don't like. And the next day we're, you know, using it for an entirely third purpose. And maybe we're just going to use it to isolate China, but to bring in our friends. But none of these, you can't do all of these things at once.

And then the next we're just using it as all purpose surplus leverage against any country that does anything we don't like. And the next day we're, you know, using it for an entirely third purpose. And maybe we're just going to use it to isolate China, but to bring in our friends. But none of these, you can't do all of these things at once.

And it needs to be very stable if you're going to get companies to do these long-term CapEx investment decisions that take decades to play out. Nobody I know in the markets, no CEOs.

And it needs to be very stable if you're going to get companies to do these long-term CapEx investment decisions that take decades to play out. Nobody I know in the markets, no CEOs.

I wasn't in the Biden administration, number one.

I wasn't in the Biden administration, number one.

Can we not keep doing PNTR for a minute? Let's look forward, not backwards. Look at the CHIPS Act. Look at the IRA Act. They did the exact things we're talking about.

Can we not keep doing PNTR for a minute? Let's look forward, not backwards. Look at the CHIPS Act. Look at the IRA Act. They did the exact things we're talking about.

But this is the point I'm trying to draw around Biden. I'm not saying I agree with every way the Biden administration defined its objectives. I just wrote an entire book about the failures of democratic policymaking in this specific era. What I am saying is the Biden administration's view of trade was that there are targeted industries.

But this is the point I'm trying to draw around Biden. I'm not saying I agree with every way the Biden administration defined its objectives. I just wrote an entire book about the failures of democratic policymaking in this specific era. What I am saying is the Biden administration's view of trade was that there are targeted industries.

We should be putting a lot of both domestic policy and international policy into play in order to protect and reshore or friendshore. And the Trump administration's view is that you have a generalized problem running all across the world that requires highly general policies that then when I ask people to defend it, they sort of move to this targeted argument.

We should be putting a lot of both domestic policy and international policy into play in order to protect and reshore or friendshore. And the Trump administration's view is that you have a generalized problem running all across the world that requires highly general policies that then when I ask people to defend it, they sort of move to this targeted argument.

Donald Trump's view, I feel like we end up making something that is not that complicated into something much more complex than it is. Since the 80s, Larry's point about Lee Iacocca, Donald Trump has appeared to hold the view that that any time the U.S. is operating at a trade deficit with someone else, that is evidence we are being ripped off.

Donald Trump's view, I feel like we end up making something that is not that complicated into something much more complex than it is. Since the 80s, Larry's point about Lee Iacocca, Donald Trump has appeared to hold the view that that any time the U.S. is operating at a trade deficit with someone else, that is evidence we are being ripped off.

And that is how you get at least the initial set of tariffs here that work off of bilateral trade deficits and try to correct every single one with every single country, be it Lesotho or a collection of islands inhabited by penguins. I just I think it's really important to be connected to the policy that was actually announced and not sort of projecting all of our own onto it.

And that is how you get at least the initial set of tariffs here that work off of bilateral trade deficits and try to correct every single one with every single country, be it Lesotho or a collection of islands inhabited by penguins. I just I think it's really important to be connected to the policy that was actually announced and not sort of projecting all of our own onto it.

Like, yes, Larry's right that you could have a different set of critical industries than Biden did. The Biden team was very focused on clean energy over other kinds of energy. I also do not agree with like the liquid gas pause. I thought there were some, you know, there and we did not do nearly enough on things like permitting reform. Right. There's a lot you could have done that they didn't do.

Like, yes, Larry's right that you could have a different set of critical industries than Biden did. The Biden team was very focused on clean energy over other kinds of energy. I also do not agree with like the liquid gas pause. I thought there were some, you know, there and we did not do nearly enough on things like permitting reform. Right. There's a lot you could have done that they didn't do.