Ezra Klein

And on the other hand, they're going to begin to build fortresses and deals and partnerships and approaches that make sure they are less exposed to our ability to wield this power against them in the future. But before I came on the show, I had gone on X and I saw a

And on the other hand, they're going to begin to build fortresses and deals and partnerships and approaches that make sure they are less exposed to our ability to wield this power against them in the future. But before I came on the show, I had gone on X and I saw a

A clip of you going around where you're saying that one of the problems with the Biden administration was that you couldn't get anybody on the phone. And in the Trump administration, you make the call. The deputy chief of staff picks up. You say, hey, I need you to talk to this company. I work with them. They're freaking out about the tariffs.

A clip of you going around where you're saying that one of the problems with the Biden administration was that you couldn't get anybody on the phone. And in the Trump administration, you make the call. The deputy chief of staff picks up. You say, hey, I need you to talk to this company. I work with them. They're freaking out about the tariffs.

The deputy chief of staff tells the company they work something out.

The deputy chief of staff tells the company they work something out.

They listen. They listen. This world in which we are doing the dealmaking by individual relationships, by who can get their calls answered, not by rules that feel clear and stable. Ezra, that's how the Biden administration worked, Ezra. I listened to that clip.

They listen. They listen. This world in which we are doing the dealmaking by individual relationships, by who can get their calls answered, not by rules that feel clear and stable. Ezra, that's how the Biden administration worked, Ezra. I listened to that clip.

And that's not what I said.

And that's not what I said.

Who cares what George Clooney thinks? Didn't you just say on, well, I was very, very critical of Biden.

Who cares what George Clooney thinks? Didn't you just say on, well, I was very, very critical of Biden.

Great. I think we're actually not saying something all that different here. No, you made it sound like corruption. Well, I actually do think what Trump is working through is deal-by-deal patronage based on how he sees the company. I'm sorry, the other country.

Great. I think we're actually not saying something all that different here. No, you made it sound like corruption. Well, I actually do think what Trump is working through is deal-by-deal patronage based on how he sees the company. I'm sorry, the other country.

So fair enough.

So fair enough.

Okay, fair enough. I am not telling you that the Biden administration should have returned your calls.

Okay, fair enough. I am not telling you that the Biden administration should have returned your calls.

What I am saying is that the degree to which Trump first and then everybody around him as an example of him, because culture comes from the top, is working off this kind of individual call and dealmaking worries me because I believe that you had every one of these calls you're saying and they went exactly the way you say they went. And then the calls that you are not getting and they are.

What I am saying is that the degree to which Trump first and then everybody around him as an example of him, because culture comes from the top, is working off this kind of individual call and dealmaking worries me because I believe that you had every one of these calls you're saying and they went exactly the way you say they went. And then the calls that you are not getting and they are.