Ezra Klein

What are the measures we are looking at and how will they achieve them? Is it just trying to save a trillion dollars? They've been very, but that's not efficiency, right? I could save a trillion dollars. No, I could save a trillion dollars in ways that will make the, let's put it this way. What Larry was just saying, right? If you cut everybody at the IRS, right? Just cut every single one of them.

What are the measures we are looking at and how will they achieve them? Is it just trying to save a trillion dollars? They've been very, but that's not efficiency, right? I could save a trillion dollars. No, I could save a trillion dollars in ways that will make the, let's put it this way. What Larry was just saying, right? If you cut everybody at the IRS, right? Just cut every single one of them.

On the Doge measure of how much did you save in headcount, that will look like it counted up towards your save a trillion dollars goal. But in terms of what Larry is saying, which is the long term efficiency of U.S. tax collections, you'd have just made the IRS much, much, much less efficient.

On the Doge measure of how much did you save in headcount, that will look like it counted up towards your save a trillion dollars goal. But in terms of what Larry is saying, which is the long term efficiency of U.S. tax collections, you'd have just made the IRS much, much, much less efficient.

There is some stuff I am not going to tell you that there are zero Doge cuts that made sense. But I am going to say that what I see them doing overall is highly destructive state capacity. Or similarly, a lot of things happening around USAID and say PEPFAR funding. Is PEPFAR efficient? I mean, yes, you save money by not giving HIV retrovirals to children in Africa.

There is some stuff I am not going to tell you that there are zero Doge cuts that made sense. But I am going to say that what I see them doing overall is highly destructive state capacity. Or similarly, a lot of things happening around USAID and say PEPFAR funding. Is PEPFAR efficient? I mean, yes, you save money by not giving HIV retrovirals to children in Africa.

But I think it is good that you do that, right? So that's not the kind of efficiency I'm looking for. I am interested in state capacity that is connected to achieving specific goals. I've talked to a bunch of people around Doge. And again, here you get a lot of different ideas of what the goals are. Some people say, well, what we're trying to do is save money.

But I think it is good that you do that, right? So that's not the kind of efficiency I'm looking for. I am interested in state capacity that is connected to achieving specific goals. I've talked to a bunch of people around Doge. And again, here you get a lot of different ideas of what the goals are. Some people say, well, what we're trying to do is save money.

But if what you wanted to do is save money, you could say, go to Congress and do a very big bill. There was a lot of interest in Congress, people like Ro Khanna, who wanted to work with Doge to identify big spending cuts that both sides could agree on, defense being a big piece of this. And then they decided not to do it. So Doge, to me...

But if what you wanted to do is save money, you could say, go to Congress and do a very big bill. There was a lot of interest in Congress, people like Ro Khanna, who wanted to work with Doge to identify big spending cuts that both sides could agree on, defense being a big piece of this. And then they decided not to do it. So Doge, to me...

It would be great if somebody tried it, but I see this as much more of a destruction of state capacity and a hack and slash operation.

It would be great if somebody tried it, but I see this as much more of a destruction of state capacity and a hack and slash operation.

But yes, right? Like, this is, I think, really important. And weirdly, it's the through line of almost everything I've said on the show today. Knowing what you are trying to achieve is the first part of achieving it. So if Doge is cutting things that I think do good in the world, I'm not going to say, hey, look, they're making the government more efficient.

But yes, right? Like, this is, I think, really important. And weirdly, it's the through line of almost everything I've said on the show today. Knowing what you are trying to achieve is the first part of achieving it. So if Doge is cutting things that I think do good in the world, I'm not going to say, hey, look, they're making the government more efficient.

We no longer have a strong foreign aid program or whatever it might be. They've destroyed the Department of Education without knowing what they're cutting there. I don't think Doge is doing a good job because I don't think they have in a in a thoughtful way. connected means and ends. And weirdly, my critique often of Democrats is also that they have not been outcomes focused.

We no longer have a strong foreign aid program or whatever it might be. They've destroyed the Department of Education without knowing what they're cutting there. I don't think Doge is doing a good job because I don't think they have in a in a thoughtful way. connected means and ends. And weirdly, my critique often of Democrats is also that they have not been outcomes focused.

They've been process focused. So David's point here is actually not been the critique I've made here. I would make procedural criticisms of Doge, but there's a world in which my take on Doge is, look, I agree with what they are trying to do, but I wish they would follow the law. But that's not my take on Doge. If you had to pick,

They've been process focused. So David's point here is actually not been the critique I've made here. I would make procedural criticisms of Doge, but there's a world in which my take on Doge is, look, I agree with what they are trying to do, but I wish they would follow the law. But that's not my take on Doge. If you had to pick,

I would absolutely prefer to Kamala Harris administration to the Trump administration. Would I like to see Democrats be significantly more reformist? Yes, I've written a book about it. I'm trying to persuade them of this argument.

I would absolutely prefer to Kamala Harris administration to the Trump administration. Would I like to see Democrats be significantly more reformist? Yes, I've written a book about it. I'm trying to persuade them of this argument.